Still Getting Opiate Withdrawal Symptoms During Meth Withdrawal - need Dex !

[Chip (OP)]

I am now 100% sure that I suffer mild Opiate withdrawal after any amount of Meth use and it's proportional.

the runny nose, the sweats and chills last for a few days. tired but can't sleep without Phenibut. significant depression and some anxiety.

amazing but true. it also culminates in a sneezing run that goes on for days. sure, i took 36 mg Codeine but that isn't going to cause this.

I know I keep mentioning it but it just amazes me how I'm never going to recover from my decades of opiate use.

Phenibut helps with the symptoms but creates extreme lethargy.

I have got to find a Dexamphetamine prescriber so I can normalise and put the Meth away.

it won't be easy but I'm going to try. This up and down thing is not fun.

the thing is that I get so damned productive on it - it built this site. haha, powered by tweak in the true addict spirit 

[Mr.pooper]

sounds like you have an endorphin deficiency. Did you ever see my post about my theory on how addicts are born in pain?



Basically all addicts are born in pain.

Pre and post natal exposure to stress hormones produced by the individual and their mother causes the Toll Like Receptors (TLR) to malfunction, especially during stress and puberty (lots of hormones flyin around) but this continues all your life, be you 5 or 50. That's why quitting opiates isn't actually fixing anything in your brain.

Getting clean from heroin is like cleaning a kitchen and thinking your kids aren't gonna mess it up ever again. Things can be done to mitigate  such as gym, healthy diet. But eventually it will be a mess again.

TLR4 in particular causes proinflammatory cytokines to be produced. These cytokines, in particular TNF-a (there are many others) bind to receptors in our brain, in particular in the Mu an Ku (opiate receptors) in the PAG, and gabba receptors. These chemicals in low level cause anxiety, depression and even joint pain and stomach problems, especially during stressful events.

Those exposed to physical and emotional abuse, be they rich or poor are born like this, primed, predisposed. They are born into pain but don't realise that its abnormal to be anxious and depressed.

So when exposed to opiates, and everyone will always end up getting exposed, one day finally you are relieved of a weight you never realised you were carrying.

When i was 16 I had my first opiate. I thought the high was amazing.

What i was really feeling though was the giddy relief of life without pain. It was as if 100kg had come off my back..

This pain cant be fixed with panadol. Unless you want to be at gym junkie levels (literally producing a ton of endorphins, opioids that bind to Mu and Ku) there are no easy solutions.

Heroin works well. But here is the kicker.

Heroin, morphine etc have two metabolites, M6G and M3G. The first relieves pain.

But the second, the M3G causes a problem. It activates, ironically enough, TLR4.

So your body makes more cytokines, so to stop them hitting your gabba, Ku and Mu you have to take more heroin hence tolerance.

Until the day you run out. And then your exposed to insane levels of toxic proinflammatory cytokines. The pain is like the flu x 1000.

Think of the worst pain you've ever had and times it by 100 and a tell me if you could last a week.

The point of these cytokines at elevated levels, they make you vomit, give you fever and attack infected tissue, causing pain on a huge scale but killing the infection as well.

Nominally TLR4 is activated by signally from white blood cells. But for addicts, be you a meth head, drunk or a junkie those three drugs all cause, to certain degrees TLR4 to be activated.

Opiates more so.

This is why drugs are addictive and why getting clean is almost pointless.

[Chip (OP)]

I also believe that people are born with low levels of endorphins but I am not one of them - I just spent too long on Methadone and my system is stabilizing.

thank you for your explanation but I'd much rather be drug independent and use once in a while.

I'm getting there but my GABA regulatory system has taken a beating so that's my main concern right now.

[Edhorfin]

I never had amphetamine withdrawal so I can't speak intelligently on the physical aspects. Saw a lot of people in my rehab visits who were there for meth, but post detox, they didn't seem to be physically ill.

I'm not surprised about having opiate WD while having anything else. Opiate withdrawal won't disappear because one is withdrawing from amphetamines.

THe whole bit sounds pretty terrible though. I'd deal with the physical opiate symptoms however possible and the craving for speed can require some long term really hard work.

So much of your brain chemistry is out of whack it could take a really long time.  Like a lot of previous responses, endorphin levels can be deficient at baseline. For sure, they are deficient now, and can be for years. Not a scientist but Ive read the delta endorphin receptor can take decades to recover, if ever.

[Chip (OP)]

The sneezing is slowly getting better but I know that it's related to my history as i get goosebumps when i sneeze.

Really ? Decades ? that sounds a bit too long but i'm certainly still very mildly symptomatic.

I don't crave amphetamines these days but i still WANT then. Tobacco is my main hook otherwise i am no longer dependent on any medication or other drug.