1013-INVOLUNTARY LEGAL HOLD & FORCED DETOX-METHADONE TO SUBS SWITCH & TAPER?

[gnossos (OP)]

Extremely abrupt, traumatic and devastating recent life events (the heroin-related death of my husband just 2 weeks ago), through circumstances too tedious to recount, landed me on a "1013" (involuntary legal hold) in the hospital (which, BTW, WTF???... but more on that later in the post)... Some of you are aware of my almost uncontrollable urge/compulsion to write, completely unfiltered/unedited, with no regard or care at the time for who reads it or the consequences. Well, after my husband's death, apparently my mom didn't quite "get" some of my Facebook posts and some shit I said to her while I was high/still in shock from his death. Something about thinking we had a "suicide pact," bullshit bullshit, Idk... Anyway...


After being FORCED, INVOLUNTARILY, (after furious protests) to switch and taper down from 40mg/day of methadone disk to 2mg/day Suboxone strip in just 5 days, SHOULD I EVEN BOTHER GOING BACK TO THE CLINIC OR IS THIS A GOOD TIME TO SAY FUCK IT AND KICK?


I was on a low dose (40mg disk) of methadone and planning to taper down prior to my husband's death. (He had stopped going, but I persevered... or was too lazy/scared after watching his difficult detox to get off the shit myself). I was scared SHITLESS that I was gonna be SICK AS FUCK without my methadone, but I barely felt it. Could be a mixture of the shock/numbness of losing the love of my life, being high on stims when admitted to the hospital, plus the Depakote and Klonodine patch they had me on... but going from 40mg/day methadone disk to 2mg/day Sub strip over a mere 5 day period didn't phase me at all...


... I'm not stupid enough to think that after 2 years of methadone and opiates, a little 5 day detox got me through the whole dopesickness and I've kicked. I'm just curious what you all would do in my situation; I mean this just seems like a good opportunity to say fuck the clinic, especially since with my husband I also lost his income. Not sure how much longer I'd be able to pay for daily methadone/sub clinic fees, anyway.


I'VE GOT 3 WEEKS ON THE BOOKS AT MY CLINIC (2 weeks they were kind enough to gift to me when I told them about his death, 1 week or so I'd already paid). Pretty sure it's non-refundable... Should I go back and if I do, what would you suggest as far as tapering? I personally HATED Subs before this experience, but I was FORCED to like them. Now that I can tolerate them, should I switch back to my good ol' methadone to taper, or is it easier to taper off 2mg/day sub strip?


I mean, personally I'm not trying to get off dope ANY time soon. Just being honest. I feel like the clinic might be my only anchor to the ground while I feebly try not to let this shitstorm of misery blow me away.


Gonna post separately about my absurd experiences with being on an involuntary 1013 detox. SERIOUSLY, HOW THE FUCK IS IT LEGAL FOR A DOC TO JUST RANDOMLY DECIDE TO IMPRISON ME AND TAKE MY LEGALLY PRESCRIBED MEDS AWAY WITHOUT MY CONSENT? Some of the shit I saw happening to other patients, holy fuck... (see other post).



Thanks for any/all advice about tapering off methadone vs. subs, etc. I think I'll write a separate post about the whole 1013/"involuntary legal hold" bullshit. After going through it, I want to THOROUGHLY educate myself on the legalities of a 1013 and forced detox, even from LEGALLY PRESCRIBED MEDS, without my consent (they took my Xanax and refused to release it back to me after my discharge).

P.S.

I have the nagging suspicion that if my husband had kept going to the clinic with me, he might still be alive. I've heard it for years, that relapsing after cleaning up for a bit and lowering your tolerance, is fucking DEADLY, but now I've seen it first hand. In his mind, he was still the same reckless fool bangin' half grams in one shot, but his body tragically hadn't gotten the memo.


Holy fuck, how did my life just crumble away like that in the blink of an eye? Damn it's fuckin rough getting over finding him dead. I mean, kudos on being eternally PUNK ROCK AS FUCK, noddin out forever with a needle in your arm... But it's fuckin hard not to keep replaying in my head the fact that he just quietly slipped away like that with me sleeping in the next room next to a Narcan injector. If only I'd stayed awake, if only I'd woken up sooner, etc. etc... Fuck.

[gnossos (OP)]

I hope I'm not the only one who's heard of this shit before, but for those of you who don't know what a 1013 is, here's an idea: Even as an independent adult living away from home, if your family suddenly felt "concerned" enough for your well-being (especially as a known drug addict), you're just a fucking "crisis center" hotline phone call away from being INCARCERATED in a hospital AGAINST YOUR WILL and INVOLUNTARILY detoxed from any and all legal/DOCTOR-PRESCRIBED medications (narcotics) they want to take from you.

As you can see by the attached image on this post, it's a shockingly simple little form with a few check boxes that seem to unapologetically ignore civil rights and humanity in general... but that's just from my own personal experience... Here's someone else's experience being "1013"ed, FYI.

Anyway, I was just discharged today from such an experience, and it was unsettling enough to make me really want to study up on the legalities of this whole process. Also very curious to hear others' experiences.

 Before I start  that sure, I can see there being probable cause to maybe monitor me overnight or for a couple days, given the circumstances. I can understand my parents' "concern" for my well-being/safety/mental state after finding my husband dead. Sure, given the cocktail of drugs found in my system, I understood and was cool with the familiar few day-stint in the local state-funded in-patient detox/crisis stabilization facility. isclosure: My drug screen came up dirty for opiates (my prescribed methadone), benzos (my prescribed Xanax), meth (per usual... :/), and cocaine (it was just one night!).
Shit, those of you who are familiar with my tweaked-out insanity are probably glad to hear I finally at least got some kind of help, since I've been lazily toying with the idea of rehab for awhile now. I'M NOT SAYING I DIDN'T NEED SOME KIND OF HELP, I'M JUST SAYING THIS WAS NOT THE WAY TO GO, AND FELT UNSHAKABLY FUCKED UP ON SO MANY LEVELS. It was a totally different experience than when I actually called the cops on myself about 2 years ago (right before meeting my husband... wow, I've come full circle), and willingly going to a short detox.

Summary of what happened:

• Mom calls some state "crisis intervention" hotline (she now says she was just looking for grief counseling for me).
• One minute I'm getting ready to head to the methadone clinic, arguing with my mom about borrowing their car, next thing I know there's literally about 10 cops standing in my living room with some strange bitch I've never seen going, "We just want to talk to you for a minute...", advancing toward me like they're about to tackle me.
• Frustrated after arguing with my mom, I refuse to talk to the bitch (who introduces herself as a social worker who "just has a few questions for me"). Without warning, she apparently puts a "1013" on me (see attached image below) - citing a Facebook post about my husband's death and just my mom's statement that I had threatened suicide after my husband's death and was on drugs - ordering emergency transport to the hospital for psych evaluation.
• EMT's arrived to transport me, I went willingly and without any resistance, thinking I'd be in and out easily after explaining that this was all just a big misunderstanding and that I WAS NOT suicidal.
• I KNOW I COULD NOT HAVE APPEARED PARTICULARLY FUCKED UP/INTOXICATED/TWEAKED OUT/INSANE/ETC., BECAUSE I HAD A LOVELY TALK WITH THE EMT WHO TRANSPORTED ME TO THE HOSPITAL. I explained the whole situation to her: My husband dying, my parents' concern, full disclosure on the fact that I'd been getting fucked up but I wasn't suicidal or a threat to myself, etc. We laughed about the fact that this is just how my mom/parents handle shit when they don't know what to do with their kids. Just a few months prior to this, I was INFURIATED when my mom had my 10yr old sister locked down in a similar state-funded facility when she wouldn't go to school, claiming her anxiety was too severe.
• The EMT said she would put in a good word with the social worker for me.
• -

Being held for 24 hours in a local hospital and then transported almost 2 hours away on a 1013 "involuntary legal hold" because I was deemed "a threat to myself or others" was a COMPLETELY different experience than admitting myself voluntarily, (in the exact same location). ALL I CAN SAY IS, IF IT WAS THAT EASY FOR MY FUCKING (ALSO) INSANE MOTHER TO COMMIT ME, ALMOST AS AN EXPERIMENT, I'M CURIOUS HOW EASY IT WOULD BE FOR ME TO GET HER LOCKED UP THE SAME WAY???

Some WTF??? HOW IS THIS LEGAL??? moments:

• You learn quick to stop resisting/fighting it. (The harder you fight it, the more heated you get in arguing your sanity, the "crazier" you make yourself look).
• Legally prescribed medications (presumably if they're of the narcotic variety) can be taken upon hospitalization, involuntarily detoxed out of your system and NOT GIVEN BACK. (I had a bottle of Xanax, 20, 1mg, prescribed to be "taken as needed for anxiety" that they refused to return upon my discharge).
• The facility I was transported to BOAST ON THEIR WEBSITE ABOUT ELECTRO-SHOCK THERAPY being a treatment offered for depression. ()
• -

[IT'S EARLY, I'LL KEEP MODIFYING/ADDING... JUST WANTED TO GET THIS TOPIC STARTED, AT LEAST...ONCE I CAN'T MODIFY ANYMORE I'LL FINISH THIS UP ON MY BLOG, TAKE THE POWER BACK, IF ANYONE CARES TO READ THE REST...]

[Z]

I'm surprised they can force you into subs.  Will you keep getting subs now?

[gnossos (OP)]

In so many words (per usual for me), that's the question I was asking the forum. Looking for advice on methadone vs. subs tapering and figured this was the right place to get it...


And yeah, it was super fucked up. I was wigging the FUCK out when I first heard they wouldn't give me my methadone. It was an all-around bizarre, nightmarish experience with the healthcare system that I never want to replicate.

[MoeMentim]

I've tapered & got off bupe a few times, definitely the easiest opiate I've weaned from mostly because there's no recreational value in the stuff at all, that makes a taper so much easier.  2mg/day is already really low, if it were me I'd DEFINITELY taper off that rather than methadone.  You can always go back to the clinic but this sounds like a good opportunity to give the clean life a shot being that you are interested in that at least.  Much luck and comfort to you, you've been through a lot.

[Chip]

I hope you're OK gnossos - I have been detained against my will in an asylum for a month and have had prescribed meds taken from me permanently in hospital - man, was I angry about that too !

I think that at least you have people watching you carefully in this time of tragic loss and immense grief.

don't beat yourself up over this - it's not your fault. I have lost close friends to overdoses and it happens so easily. it's the nature of full agonist opiates. it's a miracle I didn't die myself - I got lucky that's all.

you will get through this and you are in a position to change your life now so you can seize this opportunity.

I'm very sad for you but I know that you have the strength to recover from this.

we are here for you - it's not like real friends but many of us understand how this play out.

[gnossos (OP)]

Thanks chipper, I appreciate that... It did turn out to be a good thing in some ways. I'm off methadone and subs now, actually had a couple strips left and just said fuck it, I don't need em. I probably was a little dopesick at some point but didn't even notice it with everything goin on.

[Chip]

yeah? ... that's amazing ! really well done.

I'm not saying that you have to stop using drugs like opiates forever but in your fragile state, they won't help in the long run ... maybe you can revisit them with far more caution later when you feel better and perhaps avoid opiate use alone and no more frequently than once a fortnight.

I used some Meth and Diazepam to cope with my father's death so I don't want to be hypocritical.

I think it will help you recover much faster if you distance yourself from the drug that led this catastrophe.

[Snoop]

That's a whole lot of bullshit to have to go through... I'm so so sorry.

I couldn't imagine finding my wife like that. You're such a tough person to even be on your feet right now at all.

Keep being strong, things will get better (as cliche as that sounds).

Far as the MD or Bupe taper... sounds like you got your shot at getting out of this fucked up lifestyle most all of us are fighting our way through as well.

I sure hope that you're getting through this the best you can.

I hope that you find your way.

Good luck to you.

[Tainted]

the thing in FL they call it "marchman act" if a family member goes to the court they can say "my relative is using drugs and i think they might accidentally harm themselves" and the court will mandate detox/rehab (enforced by police, if you check out of the detox they issue warrant or some shit i dunno i never been thru it but was in detox with ppl there on mandatory holds) but i was in detox with like 19 year olds that got marchman acted because they were smoking a little bud, its crazy

[Mr.pooper]

the thing in FL they call it "marchman act" if a family member goes to the court they can say "my relative is using drugs and i think they might accidentally harm themselves" and the court will mandate detox/rehab (enforced by police, if you check out of the detox they issue warrant or some shit i dunno i never been thru it but was in detox with ppl there on mandatory holds) but i was in detox with like 19 year olds that got marchman acted because they were smoking a little bud, its crazy

Wow, how this hasn't been sued out of existence is beyond me? Glad nothing like that is around in my state to my knowledge. I could see my family justify doing that to me, even for just me using weed. That would be such a fucked up thing to do to a family member suspected of using. How haven't their been tons of cases where the family member was just mad at another and had them committed???

I've heard the rehab industry main clientelle is for weed. Angsty controlling parents sending their precious little jimmy to rehab over smoking weed at 17...

Sorry  @gnossos about the circumstances. Forced detox is truly a nightmare, on top of the death of a loved one. Wow, those feels must touch on the edge of what hell must feel like. You are very strong.

I'm always so surprised in the ways addicts are allowed to be treated. How are there this many closed minded people in today's age?

[Dog Food]

Im sure there has to be some kind of proof that the person uses drugs and has a reason to be in detox(even if they dont want to detox, they gotta be positive for a drug screen or somethin at least.) I cant see them just taking the accusors word and trowing the accused in detox without some sort of qualifications they have to have first.  I mean if they came and you got fresh track marks that should be all they need to qualify you id think

Id never talk to any family member(s) that did that to me, ever again. An intervention is cool with me, but this shit is some low down shit to do to someone​ cause its well known that rehab for anyone but yourself is just a waste or time and money

[opi,esq.]

the thing in FL they call it "marchman act" if a family member goes to the court they can say "my relative is using drugs and i think they might accidentally harm themselves" and the court will mandate detox/rehab (enforced by police, if you check out of the detox they issue warrant or some shit i dunno i never been thru it but was in detox with ppl there on mandatory holds) but i was in detox with like 19 year olds that got marchman acted because they were smoking a little bud, its crazy

Wow, how this hasn't been sued out of existence is beyond me? Glad nothing like that is around in my state to my knowledge. I could see my family justify doing that to me, even for just me using weed. That would be such a fucked up thing to do to a family member suspected of using. How haven't their been tons of cases where the family member was just mad at another and had them committed???

I've heard the rehab industry main clientelle is for weed. Angsty controlling parents sending their precious little jimmy to rehab over smoking weed at 17...

Sorry  @gnossos about the circumstances. Forced detox is truly a nightmare, on top of the death of a loved one. Wow, those feels must touch on the edge of what hell must feel like. You are very strong.

I'm always so surprised in the ways addicts are allowed to be treated. How are there this many closed minded people in today's age?

Every state has some type of mental health "welfare" statute to protect people who may be a danger to themself or someone else. Even though a physician may deem you mentally unable to make decisions for yourself, you still have protection under your state's and the U.S. Constitution. While confined, you have a right to a hearing to determine what, if any, medication(s) may be given to you (or withheld from you). If you cannot afford an attorney, you have the right to an attorney at no cost (of course, most of those attorneys do these hearings on the regular, and generally don't fight too hard against the physician's orders). Gnossos should have been advised in writing about her rights to an attorney under the US Constitution. It's usually contained in the admission papers.

These laws are heavily regulated. And litigated in direct and class action suits.

I'm very sorry for your loss,  gnossos.

[LadyKalma]

Holy Shit! I am sorry for your loss. This is the kinda shit I'm worried about for me and my husband, since we got off the daily habit and switched to kratom 9 months ago, lately Ive been thinking its been long enough to give it another shot...but just one, and no more for the month. With this in mind, I'll be very careful with regaurds to how little tolerence we now prob have.

As per your question, it'd prob be easier to taper from subs, but I'd keep going to the m-done clinic if I were you. Subs don't do shit for cravings or for remorse and depressful feelings and I bet you're going to be going through a hard enough time without having to be having dopesick negativity creeping in. It makes you convinced everything is as bad as you think at the time when its not. I'd go back on methadone and taper later, be stable and safe and as comfortable as possible for yourself for now. I know you wanted to get off the clinic, but its really dosen't sound like a good idea before, and now it seems like even less of a good idea. Don't run away from maint. meds just cause you want to be "clean", cause it won't last if you aren't really in that mindstate that you legit do not want it ever again, and how do you even get to there?

Message me if you need someone to talk to, I can see myself when I was younger in some of your ways so I feel like I can empathise with you.

[Raine]

Louisiana has one of these too but I don't know what the actual name is like a 5150 in Cali or a Marchman act in Fl. or whatever.  I got held on one myself after going to my counselor for help after being attacked. She thought I was hallucinating or something BC I was high and that my injuries were self-caused. Nevermind the fact I'm not a self-harming person and haven't done that Shit since I was like 13.   I was high, true, but I had just been through a traumatic experience and had gone to someone i trusted to ask for help and advice on whether i should seek "official " help.  So when I was actually raped at gunpoint a year later I didn't tell anyone and didn't go to the cops or hospital BC I was an addict still and figured I'd just end up back in some mess like the first time. People seem to confuse opiate use and insanity. While being an addict might not be "sane" it also does not equate to not having an understanding of reality, the world around you, and your own self. I was perfectly capable of making decisions and taking care of myself but they treat you like just because you use drugs you literally are not able to function or think straight. It's bizarre and incredibly frustrating to be treated like a child who doesn't know what is in their best interest.

I'm so so sorry that you had to go through that. I'm sorry for the loss of your husband too. Even with the narcan right there, it's possible you wouldn't have been able to save him. Especially if the needle was still in his arm. It sounds like it happened fast. I remember you posting on opio and remember hearing about your husband, and your adventures. I've always enjoyed your writing. Hopefully writing helps you get through this a bit. Take your mom and anyone who talks to your family off your list on Facebook for any posts that are honest and anything but hunky-dory. I thin you just have to make a group and title it family and then when you post you edit who can see it and choose "everyone but 'family group.'"
Also sharing here with like-minded people is always an option right?

I'm glad you at least got off the subs and clinic. If there is one tiny good thing in all that madness there it is. That's actually huge,  a lot of money/time/sickness has been spared now but the way it happened was not ok.