Narcan, dumbest quote in a news story I've seen.

[Griffin (OP)]

https://mic.com/articles/139067/controversial-drug-naloxone-reverses-overdoses-but-here-s-what-it-does-to-your-brain#.nByZWoDXp


One idiot in this article says that most people who overdose do NOT die, and by giving them naloxone you are putting them at risk because the sudden withdrawal that could happen can cause a stroke, seizure, heart attack, or pulmonary edema. So if your a loved one has overdosed and is unresponsive with a slow faint pulse, and shallow breathing you don't know for sure if they are dying or not and by giving them narcan you are risking killing them from the sudden onset of w/d.

How can you say someone who is not close to dying from an overdose if they are unresponsive with almost no pulse or breathing? That guy should be banned from speaking, or communicating in anyway to any human ever again and anything he has said should be erased from everyones memory.

How reckless and dangerous is that to say that people who overdose do not die usually and that by giving someone whose overdosed, and is unresponsive, narcan can kill them and that it's impossible to tell if someone whose not breathing and is unresponsive with a slow pulse is almost dying or not so you shouldn't try to save their life because you risk killing them.

The guy who said that is also a doctor of emergency medicine and toxicology. Whoever gave him a degree should be fired, as well as who ever allowed that entity to give degrees should be barred from everything. Where do they find these people, to say this kind of shit, i mean seriously thats like saying do not breathe because there could be deadly gases in the air and by breathing you are risking death.

[Fleas Bass]

You almost have to be intellgent to say something so stupid.

"Oh doctor, well we shot johnny in the face because we didnt want his infection to spread and kill him."

Such logic

[Z]

You have to understand the difference between what we call an overdose and what medical workers call an overdose.  For them it is a larger than desired dose, so a good nod could be called an overdose. 

If someone has shallow breathing and no signs of lack of oxygen, then they don't need narcan.  That isn't irresponsible to say.  It's simply true.

I think his point is not that narcan should be withheld from people who need it, but instead to make sure that someone really needs the narcan before you give t to them.  It sounds like he is talking about potential problems that narcan can cause. 

Make sure that someone shows signs of lack of oxygen, or is not breathing/has no pulse before using a big dose of narcan.  The other recommendation Ive seen is to start with a minimal dose and then add a bit up until the person seems out of the crisis state.  When their life isn't at risk you should monitor them instead of reaching for a massive dose of naloxone.  Seems reasonable to me.

[Griffin (OP)]

That makes sense, maybe I misinterpreted it cause it didn't come off that way to me, I am all for not shooting everyone up with narcan at the first sign of od, and making them go through pwd and everything. When I read it, it pissed me off and I didn't think about any other ways he might of meant it and your right users know what an OD is, and to the outside world OD is anything more than a regular dose.

It makes sense to warn people that would want to narcan people who are fine and make sure people who have it know the difference in an OD and a good nod and what is life threatening. I was just thinking if someone is non-responsive that means I am slapping them in the face and there no response and everyone has a different definition of slow breathing and pulse so after re-reading his statement isn't reckless but the way I interpreted it at first seemed that way. I guess knee jerk reactions aren't always the best thing to make posts about

[dizzle]

I just wrote that chick an email and tore her a new one. There was a direct quote in there that said something like "only a trianed medical professional can tell an overdose".... uhhh..... WHAT THE FUCK!?!?!?


I was a total smartass and said here let me make a check list for you

Loss of consciousness      --------CHECK
Blue lips and cold skin      --------CHECK
irregular or no breathing      -------CHECK



Now, I'm not a trained medical professional, but I can tell you that IS an overdose.


I also said that her little spcheil about pharmacodynamics is wrong. People don't OD AFTER naloxone because they overcome the naloxone blockade, it's because the naloxone wears off because of the short halflife.


stupid uninformed reporters writing about shit they have no experience in

[Z]

Hmm, maybe I should have actually read the article.  If that's what was said then ignore my post.  I'm kind of selectively lazy like that sometimes.

[Anti-hero]

You almost have to be intellgent to say something so stupid.

"Oh doctor, well we shot johnny in the face because we didnt want his infection to spread and kill him."

Such logic

That was funny shit right there man

[candy]

Yeah, dizzle is correct. It is the very short half-life or naloxone.
More than one dose is most often needed. If I had to guess, usually 99% of the time, more than one dose is needed.

From what I know, something like pulmonary edema is not due to naloxone administration, but from the overdose itself or possibly due to an adulterant in the heroin. Seizures are not uncommon, but that should not be a reason to not administer naloxone.
Hitting someone with a large dose of naloxone can cause seizures, it happened to me. Start with smaller doses and increase until they are responsive, but realize that they may need another dose, especially with longer acting opiates.

If you or someone you know is using and someone overdoses and you have Narcan available, do what you have been taught to do or what you have to do to save someone's life.
I have seen similar articles in the news recently that list many reasons why increasing naloxone availability is going to
increase opiate use and it's all bullshit. Your saving someone's life and if all life doesn't mean anything to some fucking doctor, then your in the wrong profession.

Just because you have a medical license doesn't make you a fucking expert on everything, even if you are an ER doctor.
There are many more people involved in lifesaving measures taken in the ED and it often starts in the field.

[Griffin (OP)]

I hate the people and articles who say that using harm reduction it will increase usage, it's mind boggling how someone can come to that conclusion when there is nothing that comes close to making that true, same idiots who want to kill drug users, and think that more prison time is the only way to get people to stop using.

I seriously kinda hate the person who came up with the rock bottom shenanigans that someone has to hit rock bottom before they can quit, I wonder how many lives have been lost and relationships ruined because of that. Forcing someone to hit rock bottom so that they can quit is so dumb I can't believe that people actually think that works and that we need more of it. I just can't understand that level of stupidity no matter how much I have tried.

If they would of just kept it at the user has to have more incentive to get clean then to use it would of been perfectly fine. People wouldn't of taken it as the word of god and gone on an all out crusade to ruin as many drug users life to help them hit rock bottom so that they can be clean, those assholes legitimately think they are doing us a favor. They believe by ruining our lives and breaking people that will be the magic solution to end all drug addiction.

Then they keep upping the ante because people aren't quitting, so they are making harsher prison sentences, and telling everyone to break away from all contact with a user, and passing laws to make it harder for users to get housing or jobs, so that they won't have anything at all and will finally hit rock bottom and can get clean. Then after that they are going to be asking everyone to thank them for ending drug addiction.

How can they believe that by banning needle exchanges or narcan it will help stop drug addiction? I guess if more people die of aids, hep c, or overdose then they wont be addicted anymore and if they kill all the drug users then drug addiction wont happen?? Is that there thought process? How long can people completely refute all the evidence and proof that shows legalization, and harm reduction is the best solution for everyone, and that you can't police morality and ruin everyones life because they don't have the same opinion as you. Total lack of empathy, common sense, decency, forgiveness, and everything else that they tout themselves as having.

[Anti-hero]

Oh yeah there is just way to much money
In informing the "normal " public
On a proper education about drugs
And there use
Shit man that's a whole
Industry
Be like shutting down the
Entire manufacturing work

[Dog Food]

I was still high when they had to narcan me in the ambulance.  I just remember freaking out that they were putting an iv in me to give me narcan.  The guy was like "relax we already had to do the narcan".  It really only lasts for a real short time, and doesn't put you in pwds like subs do.

I guess i was real worried about them giving me unnecessary narcan because a few years ago i had nodded out for a few mins and woke up to find the ambulance was called by my naive parents.  They made me go to the hospital since they already got to my house, and about a hour after i did the shot, the doctor at the hospital was trying to give me narcan...  While i was awake since my house.  I told that guy i was fightin him if he tried giving me that shit un needed

[DeadCat]

I just head about an old friend today and his story kind of fits this thread so:

About 12 years ago a guy I went to HS with had a fall and sustained a head and neck injury. He had to go through an extended course of physical therapy and he fell in love with his physical therapist and they got married. Jim has always been easily charmed (manipulated?) by women and she became the dominant partner in the relationship. Part of that was probably predictable since she was the person who oversaw his recovery. However, one of the effects of the head injury is that Jim tends to blurt out whatever he's thinking without self-sensoring, although this is less true now than it was a few years ago.

It turns out that for about 10 years after his injury doctors were giving him a few percs or vikes (?) a day, nothing anyone here would consider any kind of habit. Then, the dotors just cut him off, I don't know why. Jim started buying a few pills a day from friends for the next few years and but didn't tell his wife. Then he decided that he was spending way too much time and effort maintaining his little habit. Once he decided this he came clean to his wife and checkied himself into a 28 day detox, (I know, for a few percs a day).

He got out and for the past 6 months or so has quit all opiates.He still smokes a little pot though. He told this to his wife and now she has him on lockdown, like he's a 10 year old boy who's mom found a couple Playboys under his mattress. She checks all his pockets every day, goes through all his phone numbers and at his suggestion they would to counselling together. He goes to AA and she goes to Al-Anon and they have her believing any "slip" totally invalidates any sober time he has and she can't to anything to "enable" him never mind he's largely supporting their family himself.

A little while ago another friend of mine gave him a little chunk of hash and she found it. She didn't even know what it was but being Jim, he fessed up and told her.

They were 5 sessions into their scheduled 6 sessions when this happened and during the last session the counselor asked Jim if he thought he was going to smoke pot anymore. Jim, not being cagey, but honest, said "I don't know. I'm taking it one day at a time" at which point his wife blew up and told him she couldn't live "like that" and told him she wanted a divorce.

Just un-fucking-believable. Here' a guy who' took (mild) narcotics every day by prescription for about 10 years, then didn't quit right away when he got cut off but still made the decision on his own to check himself into rehab and tell his wife what was going on and that he was taking those steps to deal with it and now he's just a piece of shit junkie in her eyes. It's bad enough she's beng a cunt (yeah I said it but becasue it sounded better than asshole) she's a "health care professional" who no doubt treats people every day who are getting pain meds after injuries.

The abstience people have got a lock on people's minds into believing that they have "the cure." Doctors and courts will routinely just shove people into mandatory etings instead of actually doing something for them or finding the right help for the individual, even if than means letting the person in question decided for themselves how they want to live in this "Land of the Free."

All this pain and jail and financial and familial ruin because of a trumped up "war" on drugs. ~75% of people who quit drugs or alcohol do it with on their own without groups,  no programs or 12 steps or structure, they just decide it is time to stop. AA and NA have been found to "work" for only 1 in 6 people who try it and it is really just recycled 20th century American Protestantism preaching abstinence.



SPeaking of that, I heard on NPR recently that the W.O.D. was created by the Nixon administration as a way to clamp down on the two groups they saw as their primary domestic enemies: Black and Hippies" IT's true. THey started ramping up penalties and enforcement, formed the DEA out of two smaller, unimportant agencies just to keep the Blacks down and the rebellious youth in check. It has nothing to do with "protecting the children."

I know that last paragraph may sound like bullshit, it did to me but:  http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/

[chemicalchart]

I've listened to enough "tough love" sermons to last me a lifetime. Like metaphorically beating the crap out of someone helps anyone other than the person administering the beating. Misguided loved ones do more harm than good when it comes to "curing" a partner. I mean divorcing your husband over a chunk of hash!! Good grief.  The cynic in me says good riddance to the crazy wife but I know the guy is going to be hurting over that. Just sad. Magical thinking is alive and well in the rehab community.