MMT to Sub induction in 10 days-any advice?

[Dopeless Hopefiend (OP)]

@Griffin , yep. That's the main reason. Being married to the clinic is getting old. I just finally got a decent counselor again, but still. Like yours it's the director & the doctor at mine that are total fucks. They're both on a huge power trip. And it's 100% for profit too. It's crazy how hard they make it for people to taper & get off, but have no problem increasing people's doses up to 300mg a day or more. It's all about the $$. It's taken me over a year to get from 85 down to 30, and so many fucking hoops to jump through. The doctor only approves your taper down to a certain dose, then you have to go through the whole dose eval process with your counselor again to get a new order. That takes 2 to 3 weeks to get approved each time. Then the whole process again every 20-25 mgs or so. And if I don't get a pregnancy test every 30 days forget it, I have to hold my taper. It's fuckin maddening.
I know I could just continue this very long & drawn out methadone taper @chipper but it would take for fucking ever. I'm off school for the summer, but got accepted into a pretty academically challenging program that starts in the fall. So really the subs are the quickest route for sure. I can't imagine trying to taper down to zero while I'm taking 14+ credits and taking care of my kids. I'm just not that tough man.

[Z]

The American methadone experience is pretty different from places like Australia,  the UK and Canada chipper. I have trouble understanding this too,  but I am not bothered by the minimal hoops I have to jump through here.

Honestly my addiction was a lot more invasive. My doctor and pharmacy are both nice though,  and the whole thing is pain free.  Even here though,  there are people that hate the restrictions methadone puts on them.  For me I look at it as a sacrifice to deal with my addiction.  I think that if I got to the point the OP is at I would look at tapering off methadone entirely instead of switching to subs.

FWIW I have heard lots of different estimates for transitioning onto subs.  When I started on methadone I asked my doctor about switching to subs.  He told me that his experience was that it took 5 to 7 days before you can switch without pwd.  It seems to me that if you are going 7 days without and you are stable,  then maybe you should just quit.  Make a taper plan with the oxy if you want to take the edge off,  but give it a shot first. Just my 5 cents.

[Dog Food]

Yep i agree, if you got a lot of oxy saved up, just taper with those.  Subs are a bitch to taper with just like done cause of the half life being so long.  I would never jump from a maintenance med, i always tell people to taper down low then switch to a short opie and take only enough to take the edge off.  Subs are only good for maintaining a habit in my opinion

[Chip]

chipper, but it would take for fucking ever. I'm off school for the summer, but got accepted into a pretty academically challenging program that starts in the fall. So really the subs are the quickest route for sure. I can't imagine trying to taper down to zero while I'm taking 14+ credits and taking care of my kids. I'm just not that tough man.

@Dog Food, with the Subs PWD route, it's going to be faster: the anti-antagonist nature of bupe is that it will lower your short-term-to-0 tolerance.

the more the pain, the faster you get through it. your call.

i understand your position ... a little fast pain may in order. much luck, bro' !

[Dopeless Hopefiend (OP)]

Oh , for sure @chipper I definitely plan on waiting long enough to start the subs that the PWD isn't an issue! If I'm not sick as fuck I'm not taking them yet. By the day of my induction I will be 5-6 days since my last methadone dose and 36 hours off oxys or any other short acting opis. Hopefully that'll be long enough.

My doc says that she's starting me out on subutex for the first couple of weeks until I stabilize, then I'll switch over to suboxone. She says it's easier to do inductions with the subutex. I've had 3 different people tell me that you don't even need to worry about PWD on subutex bc it doesn't have the naloxone in it. I'm no expert, but I thought it was the bupe itself that could cause PWD if you take it too soon. Anyone know which is true?

@Dog Food I wish I had enough oxy to do a straight taper off the methadone just using those. Shit, that'd probably take at least a month. I have plenty for a week or so, but I don't think that'll cover it.

 much luck, bro' !

By the way, I'm a girl. For some reason every time I've posted on here people assume I'm a dude lol. No worries, I just thought I'd mention that. 

[Chip]

yeah, the bupe kicks the Methadone of the receptors and sticks to it thus causing the PWD. No Naloxone required.

You lessen that by getting very ill first.

Sorry, much luck sister ... the detox from bupe will be utilmately easier.

[dizzle]

ahahahah@"Subutex doesn't cause PWD because it doesn't have naloxone"


hey, GUISE, BUPRENORPHINE CAUSES PWD, naloxone is only there because the jerkoffs at reckitt-benkiser had to come up with a "new" formulation in order to get a patent, they were driving bupe towards the junky market and sold it at a maintenance med to the FDA and DEA as "an abuse proof" med, because if those dirty junkies tried to crush them up and IV them they'd get hit with a big dose of naloxone.


Also, if you dose subs under the tongue the naloxone is basically not active and is a moot point anyway.


Even if you IV suboxone, you'll not even really get the effects of Naloxone anyway, because the Ki at Mu receptors is much higher for bupe than naloxone, so again, it's a moot point.


If you take ANY FORM of bupe, and you have a habit, YOU WILL GET SICK, no two ways about it. Asinine people talk about the "blocker" in subs, like they know WTF they are talking about, what they don't realize is that BUPE is the "BLOCKER" it's the thing that gets you sick, it's the thing that prevents you from getting high when you're on it, the naloxone is moot, it's there for other (bullshit) reasons.


I hate subs with a passion, if you can't tell. They are fucking awful. Honestly, I don't like being in the same room as them...


I hope it all works out for ya. I do, but you should do your research, and bloolite isn't research, read medical journals, articles, tests, learn a bit of chemistry and learn about opiate receptors and how they work, how antagonists, agonists and partial agonists work, inverse agonists are weird too, hell read about covalent bonding opiates if you want your mind blown.


You probably haven;t heard anyting I've said, and that's OK, you have your mind made up, but even if you ignore everything I've said up to this point, let me leave you with this: DO NOT ASSUME THE DOCTOR KNOWS WTF THEY ARE DOING that COWS scale is bullshit, and is influenced far too much by psychosomatic factors, LEARN ABOUT THIS SHIT YOURSELF AND BE YOUR OWN ADVOCATE. doctors watch a 90 minute video and take a short test to get that fancy DEA # to prescribe bupe, 90% don't know WTF they are doing. The other 10% actually have good expereince and can be helpful, however I personally wouldn't take a 1 in 10 chance that I could end up in PWD.... just sayin...

[Griffin]

I don't know if this has been talked about, but how long are you going to be on bupe? If your going to try to be good by the fall you should try to drop down to 20mg on methadone and then taper with what ever short acting opes you got now. There really is no point getting on bupe if your about to kick anyway. By wasting the short acting opi's on this your going to have to deal with a more prolonged kick, and if your only going to taper with it for a short time I think your making it worse for yourself.

Your going to need probably 10 days after a week taper of short acting opes to get to the point where you are getting better each day. Then after that your going to need probably a month and a half to a year to start feeling normal so if your wanting to be ope free and not suicidal and in agony 24/7 in the fall you ought to kick now with what you got instead of drawing it out and using the short acting goodies.

I c/t in jail of 280mg of done and 4 months later I still had a ton of w/d symptoms and was not a happy camper, obviously you being on a lower dose probably wont be like that but paws is the thing to worry about not the kick. You definitely want to be done with the worst of the paws if your trying to do anything worthwhile. Then again I am quite a wuss when sick and depressed most people probably handle it better than me.

[Chip]

@Griffin - your 280 mg. Methadone "jailhouse cold turkey" is as hellish as it gets.

I don't know how you coped and would like to know in more detail how that played out.

which were the worst days and what meds did you get, if any.

were you supervised, etc. ?

[Dopeless Hopefiend (OP)]

Holy fuck @Griffin 280mgs c/t is fucking insane. I can't even wrap my brain around that shit man. To answer your question though, I'm not trying to be opiate free by the fall. Just methadone free. I plan on staying on subs for the foreseeable future. Unless I'm in total misery after being on them for awhile I'm planning on being on them at least a year before I even think about tapering. I know a lot of people probably don't see the point in switching from one maintenance med to another, but I just see too many benefits for me in getting off methadone. The side effects have really kicked my ass. I have gained so much damn weight on this shit, and it doesn't matter if I consume nothing but fucking kale and water, the scale isn't budging. Not to mention the sweating, and that's the same at 30mgs as it was at 155mgs. Subs are a script I fill once a month, no groups or "counseling" and there's no need for a papal dispensation and a presidential pardon if I want to go on vacation for more than 6 days lol. I'm just over it basically. I have an amazing doctor who has been my doctor for 7+ years and is really knowledgeable about bupe & addiction in general, so I really do trust her. I mean, I'm nervous sure, but I really think it's the best option for me.
I really appreciate everyone's comments, info & answering my questions. I'm sure I'll have 20 more before I'm done with this.

[Griffin]

Oh in that case hopeless you are on the right track, just erase my last post from your mind and read mine from last page about the benefits of having a month at a time sub script and not having to deal with clinic bs. You will have to deal with the doctor which is what made me get on done, some of those docs are pure assholes so hope you get a good one, and that you can afford it and that your insurance covers it my subs were $560ish/month w/o insurance and my doc told me to fuck off.

The jailhouse kick from 280 was hell! Like getting the shit kicked out of you when you have a stomach bug trying to hang around with a bunch of other people 24/7 while sleeping on concrete with a tiny towel for a blanket. The 1st week I'd get one 325mg tylenol twice a day, and the 2nd week I was giving 1 mg of immodium once a day but after that week they stopped giving em both. They were afraid I'd get stomach problems or constipated even though water was still coming out both ends.

The reason I could only get 2 tylenols and not 3 was because they didn't want it to hurt my stomach. The inmates were extremely cool and only 7 of them for the first 4 weeks, which is what saved me. Each day they talked me out of my suicidal mentality of hanging myself from the top tier or whatever else i could think of. They also saved there sweets and gave them to me because I couldn't eat at all for 8 days, and just 2-3 bites after that until day 16 so all meds stopped at end of week 2 after. I lost 25lbs in 3 weeks.


THE WORST was sleeping, no sleep at all!!!
The beds were freezing metal and so uncomfortable and painful. NEVER COULD GET ANY WARMTH NEVER!!!  We had one thin sheet and one under sized blanket that provided less warmth than the blanket was more abrasive than a towel and smaller than one. It didn't cover up half your body. I used my extra shirt, towel, wash rag, and socks on top the blanket for more warmth. I had my tp by the bed to help with the tears gushing constantly down my cheeks, I was trying to read so once every 3 secs i'd have to wipe the tears away or they'd fall down my face or to the pillow.

You can't get comfortable no matter what you do, my NECK, back, and hips hurt so bad and your always soo tired, weak, and cold with tears and snot flowing. I was lucky that in that jail I had my own cell and toilet so puking and shitting was in somewhat privacy. 

it took 2 weeks for me to sit down long enough to play cards because of how bad my bones hurts. between day 14-17 it started getting better each day. The worst part was not sleeping, it was about 60 degrees in the pod, so add being freezing and everything else to the insomnia and i went 6 days with zer sleep then i would sleep 1-3 hours every other day until day 30 when i switched to the other jail it was a bit warmer and with in a week i was able to sleep almost all the way through the night if i did enough exrercise

The water was always luke warm or room temp which is really annoying when your thirsty and want a good drink! The guys in that pod saved me they really did.

I have a whole other post if you want to hear about its all from the 2nd jail i was at after the first 30 days and there is more to add to that one to if you want me to post it. if you want to hear more let me know  i will tell you about getting transferred to the other jail. The other one i was only in 10 days this times this time,

The jail I got transferred to is the same jail i went to the first time i ever got arrested so i could tell you about the week i spent in there kicking in jail for the first time and the whole first arrest and jail experience stuff that was shitty! and then I can let you know how it was in the bigger jail copared to the little jail and all that stuff or anything else you want to know or if you want to hear some more horrror stories of w/d in jail i got those to just let me know if you wan to hear any of it.

[dizzle]

@Griffin


I'd like to hear more. I love jailhouse stories.

[Dopeless Hopefiend (OP)]

@Griffin
Hells yeah. I'd love to hear more. Can you link to the other thread? I've never kicked methadone in jail (or anywhere for that matter) but I did have to kick dope in jail 2 or 3 times in the late 90s and fuck if that wasn't miserable. Nothing compared to what you went through I'm sure but it's seared into my memory forever!

[Griffin]

I can bitch about this shit all day so there shouldn't be any shortage of stories. So I get arrested finally and my phone was unlokced and the cop started looking at it first at my pics which i didnt mind then he went to the texts cause he thought i coudlnt' see even though the dick head was right in front of me in the front seat. I got so pissed, he was acting like cool saying he was just trying to figure out how to turn it off and that he wasn't loooking through it, even though i'd watched him for 20 secs.

So he finally put it up and asked him i wanted my car towed or left, and I said towed, well when my brother came to pick it up a week later they couldnt find it they didn't know what tow yard they used or where it was at, and it took them an hour and a half to find my car. Then with my brotehr there he need some docs notorized so he could get my stuff and there was a solid door between us and we asked him we oculd see eachother or if i could him a hug before he left since he drove 11 hours to do this for me, they told me no.

So when i got into jail i snuck taking abou 6 mgs of xanax after they blood test me cause they are idiots, and i don't remember much of the booking process just waking up after a full nights rest going into my pod with 6 other guys. 2 black guys my age one guy, one white guy my age who'd been to prison twice and caught another charge on parole he was a buff dude, a cool ass mexican(who was basiclly white) dude in for a parole violation. and one chomo who got caught raping his 8 yr neice who had down syndrome.

The chomo had already had 2 previous sex against kids charges before and he was there for 2 years fighting it from 50 years down to 15. All the guys mins the cho were awesome. the black guys got screwed over hard and the 2 parole violators i felt awful for because they were really nice cool dudes. first day they could tell I was a bit sick, I told them I was about to kick so so just beware and they all said if you want our sweets you can have them, i told them i probably wouldn't eat much of my food the frist 2 weeks so i'd give it to them to split instead of throwing it away.

The black guy who was my age was out for a drive in bumfuck CO where I got arrested and ran out of gas because he wasn't paying attn, and he didn'th ave his card on him, so he ofereed the cashier his license and phone and eerything else he had to go get money and come back because he filled up before he realized he didn't have his card on him. and the cashier threw a bitch fit and ran after him and tripped so he got an assault charge on a disabled indvidual because  who isn't all there idk what the charge is but the cashier was in crutchs to get around so he was disabled or whatever which added to the charge,

Then they gave him felony theft felony, for stealing $30 in gas and then he decided to run when the cashier guy started hitting him and his car  and then his dumbass instead of pulling over took the police on a chase but didn't resisst. so he had been in there 8 months when i went in, he had never been arrested before that, and was extremely cool. They put his bail at 1 million and started his deals at either 25 or 20 years in prison, because he was black. He had been trying to get his bail reduced for 6 months and it didn't go down once.

there is a lot to talk this is just the first day meeting people. Buff white guy got in a fight with a guy his girlfriend was fucking and broke his window in his car, so they picked him up. The other guy on parole got completely fucked he was driving home and the cops pulled him over becuas ethye knew it was him and they arrested with no charges and said he resisted by standing straight up when they were hitting him in hte ribs. the only charge he got was resisting becasue they ahd no reason to pulll him over search him or arrest him. he got fucked.


Ill  type more about the jail life latter that is just a bio on the dudes in there with me they were all my age except the pedo who was in his late 50 and had already been in prison 3x for fucking kids. yet drug users would of got death penalties for getting arrested 3x for felony drug charges