Is your doctor a moron?

[Chip]

fyi, in Aus, getting caught with unscripted steroids is worse than regular drugs.

we have a culture of drinking here and they say that violence is aggravated by steroids ... things were getting out of hand so they introduced bar/club lockout/sale bans laws a while ago and this was an unmentioned part of that.

it must be different in the US ...

[Griffin]

So I had an appointment with my doctor today and he told me that I will have to schedule an appointment at 8:30 AM to get my T levels tested. He couldn't test them right then, which is fine if that's how it's done, but I told them this over the phone when I scheduled this appointment. I wish they could of done it today instead of me waiting another week. I want to know if this is one of the causes of all the weight gain, no energy, no motivation or strength, no libido, depression, the eating and sleeping problems, and all my low self esteem/confidence.

My doctor then said he wouldn't start me on T supplements until I get off of methadone completely! I don't want off methadone at all!!! He says that is what is causing it, and that its bad for me. He hassles me about getting off of MMT every single appointment, he doesn't prescribe it to me. I get it from the clinic.

He also said that if my levels are low and he does decide to start me on supplements after I get off done, then he would only get me back to the normal range and then take me off of it asap since I am so young(25). What would by my normal range? How would I maintain that range?
I thought it'd be a continuous treatment to keep my levels at a normal range. I figure if he gave me testosterone for a month and it got back to normal wouldn't it go right back down after I stopped taking it? I guess I could be wrong any info would be appreciated!

My clinic has also been giving me problems that I posted in another thread ( http://forum.drugs-and-users.org/index.php/topic,2237.0.html ). They are forcing me and everyone else to have a family counseling session in order to get weeklies which is a huge problem for me that I am praying I have figured out. They are also doubling everyones monthly groups that we have to do on top of the monthly 1.5hr counseling sesh.

This family counseling session shenanigans has pushed back me a month on getting my weeklies and eventually biweeklies. Which doesn't sound like much but it's 5 hours a month of driving I wouldn't have to do and if you've read any of my numerous complaining posts of my methadone DUI than you probably understand how I feel about driving. Especially to the clinic, having take-homes in my car since I don't have 4th amendment rights and can be searched at anytime because I am on probation. Plus the money I'd save on gas.

My whole family has low T and none of them use any drugs what so ever before getting on Testosterone. Does weed effect testosterone levels, because I stopped smoking weed at the same time I got on methadone. When I stopped smoking weed I felt like I started having some of the side effects of having low T that I didn't have when I was smoking.

[Z]

Yeah, your doctor is a moron for sure.  I would take advantage of the blood test to find out if low t is the issue.  Then you could take the test to the clinic doc, and ask if they would consider doing something because it's probably caused by methadone.

The goal of trt is to get into the normal range.  Once you stop your levels tend to go back to where they were.  There are other things they could do as well.

There are docs in the us that will script test no questions if you have a low testosterone level.  One of my family members runs a few in the Midwest. Check out med spa, and specialist hormone replacement clinics.  If you Google trt medspa with your city you should find a place.

fyi, in Aus, getting caught with unscripted steroids is worse than regular drugs.
...
it must be different in the US ...

In Canada it is legal to have grey market steroids for personal use.  It's only illegal to sell them.  That's what I've read a few times at least.

[Guts]

Your doctor is right in a sense. Methadone is what's causing your testosterone to be low and if you get off, there's a good chance it'll rebound. He's probably talking about using a drug called clomid. I don't know too much about it but body builders use it after a cycle to restart their natural testosterone production.

Know that, if you start on the test replacement, there's a GOOD chance that your testosterone levels will always be compromised and your body will never make it on its own... at least not in normal amounts. So even if you get off Methadone down the road, there's a good chance you won't be able to get off the testosterone. Choose wisely man... if you plan on being Methadone for a while, at least into your 40s, it's probably worth it. By then, your testosterone will probably start to naturally be on the low side.

As far as what a "normal" level is, it's different for everyone. Clinically, something like 300-1200 ng/dl is considered normal. That's a huge range though... just because your numbers are low, doesn't mean you'll have symptoms of low test. Some men will have symptoms of low test at 400 ng/dl and others will be just fine.

[Z]

Sometimes they'll use an aromatase inhibitor like arimidex instead.  If that's what he's talking about, then it could be a good solution.  I read the post differently, and my bad if I read it wrong.

Here Dr Llewellyn explains it well: http://williamllewellyn.com/arimidex-vs-femara-for-increasing-testosterone-in-men-hrt/

[Griffin]

Guts most all the males in my entire family on both my mom and dads side have low T and none of them have taken any opiates or benzos at all in their life. My dad, my uncles, grandpa and on my moms side her cousins even some of the females too. They started taking replacement Testosterone in their 30s though.

I have been on opiates everyday for over 6 years. When I was off methadone for 4 months last year the major problems that I am having now were happening then but way worse, except for the libido. I was doing what I could to boost my T levels with certain foods and exercise. Before I was ever on opiates as a teenager I had a lot of the signs & symptoms of having low T too, but thought it was my depression, anxiety and that stuff.

I don't see why he is trying to force me off methadone before he will try the testosterone replacements on me. The one he said he might try i can't remember it sounded like i would take it a few times get to normal and that would be it but idk. I want on done for life right now! and would like to feel normal if T could make me that way itd be so amazing!!!!!

I am happy that I will get the levels tested and know where I am at, that will help me so much even if it is normal. If my levels are in the 250-300 would they do anything or call that normal? Does it depend on the doctor?  Do you think that if I get the test that shows that mine are super low especially for my age that they will get me to the level my age is supposed to be or to the level of what 35+ year olds should be since I am only 25? Sorry for all the questions I don't think my dr knows what he's talking about and he has never done it for someone my age.

When I was on 280mg of done before my DUI arrest, I had motivation, energy, and wasn't ever tired. I worked manual labor 40 hours a week and school full time without a problem, plus I had muscle tone and didn't feel weak. I didn't have these sleep problems at all either, the weight gain and my diet was the only thing that was bad when I was on 280mg. I gained 100 lbs in a year when I started it and I have never been fat a day in my life and now I am fucking ugly and huge with ZERO confidence adding to my social depression and me never leaving my house.

Now I am on 90mgs, I haven't gained very much weight which is nice cause my diet is complete shit. 3 weeks ago I started trying to diet but the sugar cravings and lack of motivation has made it hard to keep to it. It is so bad that I wont want to spend the time to peel an orange, or go upstairs to my pantry. I will hold my piss until I can't anymore so I don't have to get up to go use the restroom. Its fucked up that I hate leaving my bed for anything. The opiates usually take care of the sadness/depression but damn.

 I am so depressed and unmotivated its like severe depression but without the insane sadness, I get sad but its because of whats going on. The done makes me like life and happy its these side effects & other shit that make me have all the signs of severe depression.

 I was able to lose 25lbs in the 4 months I was clean from my arrest and I lost 20 more in the first month or so after I started back on MMT but now I am gaining weight again. I have no muscle tone or strength, and zero energy and motivation even though it's my favorite time of year and the weather is perfect outside I am in bed 18+ hours every single day usually like 23 hours in bed every day 4 days a week less of these side effects except for weight gain, 

I don't want to get off methadone ever at least not in the foreseeable future i am miserable without completely i would beg for this if i wasn't on opiates I wonder why i didn't experience some of the other symptoms like no motivation energy or drive or anything when I was on 280 like now I am on 90 I had them but they weren't as bad at all i want to stay in my bed forever and it is fucking up my life hard~~

[Griffin]

I finally got my blood work back and from what i can tell my testosterone is really low for my age, its 361 and my free testosterone levels are 4.5. I am 25 and according to this sites graph i have the testosterone of an 85 year old man and 95% of people my age average around 1005 and 13 for free T. http://elitemensguide.com/testosterone-levels-by-age/ I am guessing that this is why my I am having a lot of the symptoms of low T.

For the bad news, my doctor said he will test me again when I have been off methadone for 2 months. He said that is why it is low and he will test me in 2 months(cause I told him I got off it this week) and if it is still low then he will see about putting me on something to help it out. So i guess I will try to find another doctor who will just put me on it seeing how my levels are pretty low.

Can someone who knows more about levels fill me in on if mine are low and if you think that it's causing some of the symptoms I am having. From the articles I have read it seems really low for my age but I am wondering if it is low enough for me to be put on something for it, and what some of your levels were when you were put on it.

Thanks for all the help so far i am glad I know what my levels are now I just gotta find a doc who will put me on something if it will help, I don't want to wait until the end of july to get tested again and then see about putting me on something as I want to see if it will help me get back to normal now.

[catsim]

need help dont know the rules and have legit problems

[Anti-hero]

 My ex neuro  doc was a idiot. Has answer to everything was a script. It only took three MRIs to get a ms diagnosis.
  He was billing my insurance company for shit he wasn't doing. Adjustments, Massages, Steroid injections, ect

 He never did anything but write me scripts. I had to demand he find out why my TBI wasn't getting better after three years. I was getting worse.

 So three MRIs latter I got a MS diagnosis. I fired his ass. Got a new doc and like in less then three weeks I feel better. People IRL have noticed too. They say I'm speaking clearer, walking better and even look better.

 I now believe doctors are no better then used car sales men. Trying to put a pool in there back yard. Just trying to make money. Tell them what you want. They work for you. You are not there test subjects. If they are not making you feel better or get better fire there ass. Get another one that will do what you want. Ask for the model with the cup holder. If they won't give it to you shop. Use the propublica web site

https://projects.propublica.org/checkup/statebystate.

Good luck in finding a good salesman.

JMHO
Antihero

[DeadCat]

I finally got my blood work back and from what i can tell my testosterone is really low for my age, its 361 and my free testosterone levels are 4.5. I am 25 and according to this sites graph i have the testosterone of an 85 year old man and 95% of people my age average around 1005 and 13 for free T. http://elitemensguide.com/testosterone-levels-by-age/ I am guessing that this is why my I am having a lot of the symptoms of low T.

For the bad news, my doctor said he will test me again when I have been off methadone for 2 months. He said that is why it is low and he will test me in 2 months(cause I told him I got off it this week) and if it is still low then he will see about putting me on something to help it out. So i guess I will try to find another doctor who will just put me on it seeing how my levels are pretty low.

Can someone who knows more about levels fill me in on if mine are low and if you think that it's causing some of the symptoms I am having. From the articles I have read it seems really low for my age but I am wondering if it is low enough for me to be put on something for it, and what some of your levels were when you were put on it.

Thanks for all the help so far i am glad I know what my levels are now I just gotta find a doc who will put me on something if it will help, I don't want to wait until the end of july to get tested again and then see about putting me on something as I want to see if it will help me get back to normal now.

Im confused. Did you tell this doctor that you will be completely and permantly off methadone in less than 2 weeks? He can't be asking you to detox to be tested to get a baseline reding all in less than 2 weeks?

If you plan on not quitting then there's no reason not to start replacement treatment sooner than later.

Oddly enough, when I was suspicious about my levels I told the specialist tht I was taing buprenorphine and was afraid it was supressing natural production and he statred giving it to me right away. One not, for many years I was taking about 2 or 3 mg of buprenorphine a day and did notat all feel like I might have low T. Then I got insurance and still thinking lik a junkie (always keep a stockpile) I asked for and got 16 mg /day and soon I was taking that much and the symptoms came along soon after.

The point is, if we who are on maintenance can keep our dosing low enough, it may not be an issue for testosterone production.

[Griffin]

My doc said he won't give me anything for it until I have been off methadone for 2 months, even though I have been telling him for the last year that I am wanting to do it long term and have no reason to get off, I was off for 4 miserable months last year I am not ready and its not worth feeling like shit all the time. So even though I have been telling him this and been asking for a testosterone test for the last year he hasnt given it to me.

2 weeks agp he finally did the test when I made it clear I wasn't taking no for an answer so he scheduled me to have my T levels checked the following week when they opened  at 8 and told me not to eat or drink anything besides water after 10 pm. The reason he has been giving me for not testing is because he says the methadone is causing it and I need to get off of it, he has been saying I need off of it since I told him I was on it.

He told me he won't start me on any T replacement until I have been off methadone for 2 months and test low again. So I told him I got off of methadone after he told me how low mine was in hopes that he might start me on it or even just to try it out for 2 weeks or a month to see if it get my levels normal and then see about taking me off and seeing what happens when i get back to a normal amount.

My MMT counselor scheduled me an appt with my done dr so that he can explain testosterone and done a little more to me. I'm going to have him write a letter to my other doc saying that he should start me on testosterone and that I need to stay on methadone, or whatever to show him that he needs to put me on it and that I don't need to come off MMT to be given meds that will give me a lot better quality of life. If he doesn't give me testosterone this next appt after I give him the letter from my mmt doc I'm going to find a new Primary doctor who will.

What is weird to me is that when I was on 280mg before I got arrested I didn't have a lot of the problems I am having now on 90 mg, like having no energy or motivation, being tired all the time, feeling weak, losing muscle mass, my sex drive is almost non-existent, and I cant sleep.

I am also a bit depressed which could cause a lot of these symptoms but its been like this for a while now and I know when I am depressed it's different. I think the reason I am feeling depressed is because I have no energy, sex drive, and being fat. I used to never have any problems with sleep, strength, motivation, or energy before I got arrested and went 4 months w/o and got back on 90.

WARNING TMI ABOUT POOP below!!!!


The weirdest thing to me is that on 280mg I had no issues with constipation. I ate purely junk food and had that best regularity and consistency I have had in my whole life, no footballs, rabbit shit, or runs at all when I was on 280 it was like medically perfect health shit. When I was off for the 4 months it was awful like cow shit or worse non stop runs, and now on 90mg I shit 3-4 times a week and it's always a 1 or 2 on this scale even with healthy high fiber food and stool softeners, on 280 it was a 4 twice a day and I ate 90% candy. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/BristolStoolChart.png

I don't get it, I am very happy that it wasn't like when I was on subs or using because that was awful, I couldn't shit to save my life only once every week or 2 and usually only with the help of an enema. Getting on done has been a life saver just the fact that I don't have to deal with that I am grateful, there are few things worse than constipation I am just glad mine just looks bad.

However a lot of the side effects with the lower dose did get much better though like I sweat less, and I haven't gained any weight since getting back on. When I first got on MMT I went from 130 to 230 in a little over a year even though I was walking a few miles every day and working manual labor but I eat much healthier now and have been able to stay at 180 but I can't lose it to save my life.

[Guts]

361 is *technically* not low. The "normal" range is something like 300-1200. It's a huge range... thing is, the numbers are more of a guideline. My brother in law got his testosterone tested and was surprised to find out it was in the 300s because he has no symptoms of low testosterone. A level of testosterone that may cause symptoms in one person may not in another. All that being said, 361 is definitely on the lower end and is probably the cause of your symptoms. Point is, don't get too caught up in the numbers. Get yourself to a testosterone level that makes you feel good.

It shouldn't be too hard to find a doctor that will prescribe testosterone to you now that you have your results. It might be tough to find a doctor that will prescribe injectable testosterone though. And even if you do get injectable test, they may not prescribe as much as you want. Usually doctors will do 100 mgs a week... I feel my best at 200-250 mgs a week. If you get fed up with the know it alls, you can always self prescribe. It's pretty easy to get and cheap online.

[Griffin]

Yeah thats a good tip thanks guts, I think you are right I read that online that it varies so much person to person that there is no normal and some people have symptoms under 500 and some people are fine at 300. thats why I am going to bring in that info from the website I posted showing that 95% of people my age have testosterone levels around 1005 and free around 13 and that I am on the lower side of the bottom 5 percent of people my age.

I am pretty sure that its the reason for why I am feeling the way I do though, because my dad and 3 uncles who have it had pretty much the exact same symptoms and they all said that they went away almost immediately and they have never touched opiates Even if it works as a placebo effect for me anything that helps I want to try. I just can't see how it wouldn't make me more normal. All the men on my dads side and a lot of the men on my moms side have it so I think that is why it will work for me because all the problems related to it I have.

I really hope that this doctor just gives me the testosterone this week and that it fixes me because I feel broke, I definitely am going to take your advice though guts and not worry about the numbers and base it on how I feel, and pray that this makes me normal. I can't explain how much feeling like this has affected my life. I have lost jobs, and I should of got 3 A's this semester instead of 1 A and 2 B's, It's like I am always tired and depressed and no matter how much I want to go out and live my life i don't because of this plus my non existent self esteem is not helping my sex drive.

[Guts]

Here is a chart from a study on methadone's effect on testosterone levels:



As you can see, no matter what the dose, all of them are low. There are a couple people able to maintain test levels above 300 ng/dl but I guarantee they were at much higher levels before the methadone. Besides, that's at the very low end of the "normal" scale andl is low enough to cause symptoma in most men. Methadone effectively castrates men... some of the men on that chart are almost literally at 0! Yet none of these punk ass know it all doctors mention this horrid side effect when you're getting on the stuff. Doctors are simply educated pharmaceutical reps.

@Griffin I absolutely cannot tolerate methadone without testosterone replacement therapy... I was so depressed. It makes a world of difference physically and mentally. Now that you have your test results man, I don't think it would hurt to order some testosterone online to hold you over until you find a doctor willing to prescribe it. I mean, you should be able to use your low test results for a certain amount of time as long as you got tested in the morning.

Here's a link to the full article if you're interested:

http://www.nature.com/articles/srep06189

[Griffin]

I am praying my doctor puts me on it and that it helps, my done doctor said that if my gp wont put me on it that he will consider doing it for me his only worry is that he is leaving the clinic this year so he wont be able to give it to me for very long. Which sucks because he is an awesome doctor he explains just about everything to all the patients and is very smart and cool doesn't trea anyone badly or like a druggie and is an all around nice guy.

I am pretty sure that if my gp doc doesn't give it to me Tuesday that if I ask my MMT dr to prescribe it for me he will. That way I can see if it will help me even if he can only give it to me for a few months that is enough time to see if it will help me with the problems I am having. If it does work after he retires my other doctor can see that someone else put me on it and that it is working and might be a little less apprehensive about it, or I will know that I need to find a doctor to prescribe it to me because it's what I need.

At the very least it might give me a little boost to be closer to normal. Does anyone know if they can prescribe more than a month at a time if it is the cream stuff and if there is a limit to the amount of refills. If he starts giving it to me and it works then the month he retires he can just give me as many refills as possible while I figure out from my other doctor if he will continue me on it or find someone who will.

My mmt doctor says he has prescribed it for a few patients before and that a lot of other patients are on testosterone there. He also is going to send in the form to get medicaid to approve it for me when he gets my blood work paperwork faxed to him.

Does anyone know if they will let you give yourself shots of it? Like prescribe the weekly or biweekly vials and let you inject yourself with it instead of having to goto a doctor every week or 2. That'd be cool to get 3 or 6 months worth of shots and come in every now in then for blood work.I thought that is what my dad had I remember seeing a bunch of vials in our fridge and needles, but my uncle said the androgel didn't work for him and he wasn't allowed to administer the shots to himself.

Has anyone else had a problem with the gels or creams like it not helping or it causing other problems? If you have had both the shots and gels which do you like more and how often do you have to take the shots? Was there any gels that worked better or worse than others?

[Guts]

If you can, ask Zoops how he's feeling and how much of a difference it made... he just got on testosterone not too long ago. He's not on methadone's but does use opiates. He also got prescribed injections so you could maybe ask him if he said anything specific to get them?

You can definitely get prescribed vials and inject them yourself but I don't know how many months you're allowed to get. I would insist on the vials if it was me... although I've never tried the gel, I don't think it works nearly as well. Don't quote me on this but I don't think you can get your numbers much above 5-600 with the gel. Plus you have to apply it every day instead of weekly. If you do get the gel and don't get good results, definitely try the injectables before giving up.

From what you're saying, all the symptoms fit. I cannot stress strongly enough how much it helped me. It made a world of difference... took me from damn near suicidal to FUCK YEA! in one injection.