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Author Topic: Does this seem right to you guys?  (Read 10590 times)

Offline monkey business (OP)

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Does this seem right to you guys?
« on: January 06, 2016, 02:52:00 AM »
So I was watching this documentary on Netflix on Kurt Cobain's death and one of the things discussed was the amount of heroin in his system.

According to the toxicology report, Cobain had a blood morphine level of 1.52 mg's / liter at the time which would be roughly the equivalent of 225 mg's of heroin IV.

The narrator goes on to claim that this is over 3x the lethal limit even for a heavy user and that there's no way Cobain could've remained conscious much less fired a gun after injecting such a large amount.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 225mg is little bit under a quarter gram, right?

I mean even if we're talking 100% pure here, I just can't imagine that being anywhere near 3x the lethal limit, even for a light/moderate user. If that were true than the lethal limit would have to be around 70mg's (less than 0.1 g's), which from my experience seems way too low.

What do you guys think?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 03:03:50 AM by monkey business »
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Offline Thoms

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Re: Does this seem right to you guys?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2016, 03:00:07 AM »
Me and Andi had the same talk. I know at the time our habit was right around that if I recall.
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Offline Narkotikon

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Re: Does this seem right to you guys?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2016, 04:01:58 AM »
I'm guessing it's three times the LD50 for a normal, non-using person. And even then LD50 means that dose is a lethal dose for fifty percent of people. So some people would survive it.

I'm also guessing that the narrator and documentary people got their facts wrong. Happens a lot with drug programs. It even happens on the History channel, that is when you can actually find history on the standard channel. History Channel is a hacky, second rate version of most BBC history documentaries IMO. End rant.
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Offline Chip

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Re: Does this seem right to you guys?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2016, 04:51:09 AM »
It's possible to have a huge tolerance but it doesn't sound right to me, if that's what you're asking.
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Offline dizzle

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Re: Does this seem right to you guys?
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2016, 01:38:18 PM »
that shit is retarded. I hate it when the news or documentaries try to equate opioid amounts to normal people.


"HE COULDN'T HAVE BEEN CONSCIOUS LET ALONE FIRED A GUN AT THAT BLOOD LEVEL"


Such bullshit, I used to take 170mgs of methadone a day, and shoot 10 bags of dope a day. So, if some dipshit journalist was reporting on my blood levels at the time, they'd be like "Dizzle was taking over 5 times the lethal dose of methadone ("lethal dose" is 25-30mgs, not LD50 people, big difference!) and shooting over 10 times the lethal dose of heroin per day, he could not have been conscious!"     ------ I'll tell ya, YEP, I was, hell, I was working at a restaurant serving tables, busting my ass.


So, to answer your q, no, that's not right, though I've read FOR A NON-TOLERANT person, 75mgs IV heroin is a lethal dose, which is very true, but I've also read that people with serious habits (I'm sure Kurt had one) could withstand over 1800mgs of pharmaceutical dope, so the moral of the story is don't trust the news....

Offline DeadCat

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Re: Does this seem right to you guys?
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2016, 02:08:48 PM »
So I was watching this documentary on Netflix on Kurt Cobain's death and one of the things discussed was the amount of heroin in his system.

According to the toxicology report, Cobain had a blood morphine level of 1.52 mg's / liter at the time which would be roughly the equivalent of 225 mg's of heroin IV.

The narrator goes on to claim that this is over 3x the lethal limit even for a heavy user and that there's no way Cobain could've remained conscious much less fired a gun after injecting such a large amount.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 225mg is little bit under a quarter gram, right?

I mean even if we're talking 100% pure here, I just can't imagine that being anywhere near 3x the lethal limit, even for a light/moderate user. If that were true than the lethal limit would have to be around 70mg's (less than 0.1 g's), which from my experience seems way too low.

What do you guys think?


This is what immediately jumped out from me when I reat the post. Are you sure hose number are correct?

-DC


[ADDED]  On the other hand,he had been down in a CA detox and may have had a reduced tolerance but then shot his regular pre-detox dose. THAT happens all the time.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 02:14:09 PM by DeadCat »

Offline nick

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Re: Does this seem right to you guys?
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2016, 02:15:16 PM »
Yeah, in the circumstances that's just wrong- the dope was probably to take the edge off putting a gun in his mouth.

Nick Broomfield's "Kurt and Courtney" goes into this and is worth checking out.

Offline Smacky-Doodle 2.0

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Re: Does this seem right to you guys?
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2016, 03:10:38 PM »
Ya good call....it's crap reporting.  It was well known Kurt was a heavy user, you can find numerous quotes from people saying "he always did waaay too much"

And DeadCat is right as well, he had just bounced from a treatment center, but had only been there 3-5 days IIRC, that last week of his life I suspect he was doing as much as he could score with what cash he had, Courtney cancelled his credit card when she found out he left treatment.

I agree with Nick in that he just did the heroin for that one last 'Hoorah' and to give himself courage for what he was about to do, so you can be sure it was a doozy.

Kurt was a small guy too, so there's that.  The lethal limit for him wouldn't be the same as a larger person, yeah?  I just don't get how they gauge such things.

I think he wrote the letter, shot up, and BOOM!! let himself out......that is if you believe the suicide theory, which I do now.  I used to think that Courtney was responsible, but now that I'm older and a little wiser, she may have been part of the reason but I don't think she had him killed or did it herself.

What's sad is that we will never know.
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Re: Does this seem right to you guys?
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2016, 03:22:05 PM »
A quarter gram of %100 pure diamorph is enough to kill 3 90lb people who've never had so much as a Vicodin.

Cops lie, journalists exaggerate.. They always gotta sensationalize everything, otherwise their shit would start sounding boring pretty fast.

I remember reading somewhere Kurt had a shit-ton of Valium in his system too, so there's that.

The dope in Seattle at that time was pretty good, ~$10/point and usually worth it for even one or two bags.
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Re: Does this seem right to you guys?
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2016, 04:44:16 PM »
Yeah, and I just took 3 times the lethal dose of morphine, by ingesting a gallon of poppy seed tea. And yet I'm still conscious, and typing this stuff.

Seems like this is pretty much par for the course, when the square public-at-large is discussing lethal amounts of narcotics. It's always much less than what it is in reality. And besides, there's really no reliable way to predict how much of a dose it will take to end someone's life. So many variables come into play.

Time for some fun with pharmacokinetics. A drug's volume of distribution is equal to the total amount of drug in the body, divided by its steady state plasma concentration. For morphine, the VD is 245 liters. At 1.52mg/l, that would give an initial dose, assuming IV bolus, of about 372mg. I don't know where they got the number for the IV dose he took, but the math doesn't add up.

A drug with a high VD is highly lipophilic, low VD indicates high hydrophilicity. A drug that is extremely lipophilic, like THC, has a very high VD. For THC, the VD is from 4 to 14L/Kg. So, for a 70Kg person, that value would be as high as 928L.

Of course, volumes of distribution for various drugs are all gross estimations, based on averages over large samples. They are sometimes reported as Liters per Kilogram, sometimes just as a single value. Volumes of distribution vary from male to female as well, due to females having higher percentage of body fat.

Interesting stuff, to be sure.
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Offline theSWPK

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Re: Does this seem right to you guys?
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2016, 09:37:06 PM »
Hah, I wonder what reporters would say about my 70mg-80mg oxym shots back when I could afford such lovely luxuries.
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Re: Does this seem right to you guys?
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2016, 10:23:14 PM »
I've done one gram shots of some pretty damn good dope... that's on top of my 120 mgs of methadone. Not to mention the times I was doing benzos... tolerance to opiates can rise infinitely.

Offline monkey business (OP)

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Re: Does this seem right to you guys?
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2016, 11:57:45 PM »
I'm guessing it's three times the LD50 for a normal, non-using person. And even then LD50 means that dose is a lethal dose for fifty percent of people. So some people would survive it.

I'm also guessing that the narrator and documentary people got their facts wrong. Happens a lot with drug programs. It even happens on the History channel, that is when you can actually find history on the standard channel. History Channel is a hacky, second rate version of most BBC history documentaries IMO. End rant.

It actually sounded like the narrator was specifically referring to heavy IV users when he made that statement, which is why it seemed so ridiculous. He even later said something along the lines of, "a shot that size would kill a non-tolerant person 10 times over..."
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Offline Narkotikon

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Re: Does this seem right to you guys?
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2016, 03:16:43 AM »
It actually sounded like the narrator was specifically referring to heavy IV users when he made that statement, which is why it seemed so ridiculous. He even later said something along the lines of, "a shot that size would kill a non-tolerant person 10 times over..."


Chalk it up to misunderstood facts, misrepresenting the facts, and generally bad narration. Happens all the time unfortunately. It always amazes me that more people don't complain about this type of stuff. Make the industry use fact checkers, or use better fact checkers. Something like that. I guess society in general is just full of couch potatoes who want to be numbly "informed," without thinking about things, while they sit there eating their sammiches. American infotainment.
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Re: Does this seem right to you guys?
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2016, 03:57:55 AM »
I still think Courtney  had something to do with it still. Maybe it's just me. There's a doc were it brings up some really valid points. Makes me dislike her and hole even more..
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