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Author Topic: Apology  (Read 16127 times)

Offline Narkotikon (OP)

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Apology
« on: August 26, 2015, 12:05:04 PM »
As much as I dislike this being my first thread, I want to apologize to the members of our community.

Some of you may have noticed that I started deleting my negative karma points last week.  I think it was last Wednesday.  I deleted the points b/c I was irked that people were giving me so many negative points.  I think that was partly to do with my views in the Opiophile Is Down thread. 

I'm not going to lie and say I like the negative karma option, because I don't.  I think the ability to give negative karma / rep opens the possibility for abuse, thereby causing discord on the board.  I think it hurts the communal feel.  And speaking for myself, I don't need a constant, visual reminder that some people disagree or dislike me.  It's not a good feeling.  It's even more irksome b/c you don't know who's giving you the points (positive or negative).

That being said, when I deleted my points I should have thought about it.  I didn't.  I simply got fed up, went to my profile settings, and deleted the numbers.  I didn't think of how that would look or be interpreted. 

I got an e-mail today from a friend, who said that someone had complained to them.  I don't know who complained, but apparently it was from someone whom I'm friendly with.  I was also told how that action is an abuse of my admin position.  I read it, thought about it, and I happen to agree.  Regular members can't delete their negative karma points, so I shouldn't be allowed to do that either. 

My deleting of my negative points was no different than Jonny deleting all negative posts, threads, and VMs about him.  If you aren't willing to take the negative, you're not entitled to the positive.

Therefore, I want to apologize for my actions.  I also want to say that ANYONE who has a problem with how I'm doing things in an admin capacity are more than welcome to contact me personally (public or private via PM or e-mail) and talk to me about it.  The door is always open for everyone. 

I was somewhat disheartened that the complaining party felt they couldn't come to me directly.  Had I been told this offended some people right after it happened, I would have changed things earlier.  So please, feel free to talk to me directly.  I'm sure the other mods / admins feel the same.

Part of what makes this board great is that there's the possibility for an open, honest exchange of dialog.  That wasn't possible before, at least not publicly.  That is only possible though if we all express ourselves. 

To be fair and to resolve this, I've decided to not participate in the karma system.  Whenever I get positive OR negative karma points, I will delete them.  I think I had -5 karma points when I deleted them originally.  I could be wrong about that though.  I know I deleted +16 points today.  If people would prefer me to reinstate that instead, that is certainly up for discussion too.  I'm just trying to resolve the matter. 

I've asked Chipper if there's a way to disable the karma system on a case-by-case basis.  If that happens, I'll most likely disable my karma system.  If the ability to give negative points is ever disabled, I'll probably reinstate my karma system.  I will start with 0 points for positive and negative in that case.  I don't think it's fair to re-add the +16 points from today.   

Again, I apologize for the abuse of my admin position.  I hope those who were offended are able to forgive me, along with everyone else. 
Transparency is necessary to ensure decent staff members get elected. Members need to know when staff are misbehaving, so members can be informed voters.

Offline Chip

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Re: Apology
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2015, 12:14:23 PM »
it may take a little time for me to either tweak the current system or look for an alternative.

I did try another reputation system but I couldn't overcome the installation errors.

I know it's not nice to get negative rep. but if it stops you to think long enough about why, maybe it's a good thing.

and I do agree that you may want to opt out.

it might be time to modify the forum's php code but I have to figure out where, what and how.

please be patient as I only really look into programming and more complex issues, only once a week.

about the same time as I put my tweaker's hat on ;)
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Offline Narkotikon (OP)

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Re: Apology
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2015, 12:20:08 PM »

please be patient as I only really look into programming and more complex issues, only once a week.


It's okay Chipper.  I'll be patient about it.  Take your time, and work around your own schedule.  Whatever's good for you.  I just wanted to address this publicly to set things straight. 
Transparency is necessary to ensure decent staff members get elected. Members need to know when staff are misbehaving, so members can be informed voters.

Offline Jega

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Re: Apology
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2015, 12:22:42 PM »
us hu? and how have you abused the rep system nark?

And did you go though and us ha? and how have you abused the rep system nark?

And did you go though and repare everyone else or just yourself?

Don't worry' I don't expect you did i'm just pointing it out.

Oh and I didn't write any email either.


Offline nick

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Re: Apology
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2015, 12:26:43 PM »
Second I can turn me rep off it's gone.

Offline Jega

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Re: Apology
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2015, 12:29:13 PM »
I hate the concept but we need SOMETHING to show new people who has been here a while and who's bought a grave plot already.

Offline Narkotikon (OP)

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Re: Apology
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2015, 12:33:18 PM »
us hu? and how have you abused the rep system nark?

And did you go though and us ha? and how have you abused the rep system nark?

And did you go though and repare everyone else or just yourself?

Don't worry' I don't expect you did i'm just pointing it out.

Oh and I didn't write any email either.



I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, as I assume you're on benzos, but....

1.  I didn't alter anyone else's karma system.  I wouldn't do that.

2.  Yes, I've given out some negative rep.  For the correct reasons though (IMO): disagreeing with posts, bad posts (badly written, silly posts, etc.).  Not to be vindictive.  If people would rather I not give out rep, we can discuss that.  I don't exactly see why someone who's not receiving rep shouldn't give rep though.  That's like saying someone who refuses to receive gifts shouldn't give gifts. 

3.  I didn't say the complaint was from you.  I never thought that either.  I said it was from someone with whom I'm friendly.  I'm certainly able and willing to put things aside on a professional basis, to deal with people with whom there's a mutual dissatisfaction.  But I wouldn't exactly call those people friends.  There is possibility for a middle ground. 
Transparency is necessary to ensure decent staff members get elected. Members need to know when staff are misbehaving, so members can be informed voters.

Offline Sand and Water

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Re: Apology
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2015, 01:32:06 PM »
us hu? and how have you abused the rep system nark?

And did you go though and us ha? and how have you abused the rep system nark?

And did you go though and repare everyone else or just yourself?

Don't worry' I don't expect you did i'm just pointing it out.

Oh and I didn't write any email either.



I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, as I assume you're on benzos, but....

1.  I didn't alter anyone else's karma system.  I wouldn't do that.

2.  Yes, I've given out some negative rep.  For the correct reasons though (IMO): disagreeing with posts, bad posts (badly written, silly posts, etc.).  Not to be vindictive.  If people would rather I not give out rep, we can discuss that.  I don't exactly see why someone who's not receiving rep shouldn't give rep though.  That's like saying someone who refuses to receive gifts shouldn't give gifts. 

3.  I didn't say the complaint was from you.  I never thought that either.  I said it was from someone with whom I'm friendly.  I'm certainly able and willing to put things aside on a professional basis, to deal with people with whom there's a mutual dissatisfaction.  But I wouldn't exactly call those people friends.  There is possibility for a middle ground.

Nark, first of all, THANK YOU for apologizing. It means a lot because, like it or not, you are listed as an Admin & with that comes power. I didn't say anything about you deleting your negative karma, but yes, I noticed. It made me very uncomfortable given the obvious support you have here.

So once more cuz it matters: thank you for owning what you did. That's hard & it took humility and guts.


You said our concerns/thoughts can be addressed openly in this thread, so I'd like to share what I've been thinking lately. I mean this with nothing but good intentions AND just speaking as a member here ok?

A LOT of us have been hurt or have feelings about what has happened at the Phile. Just because I wasn't banned doesn't mean I don't "feel some kind of way" about the situation. 

I like a lot of what you had to say there AND here. What got frustrating for me is your posts specifically in the Phile offline thread as well as to those you had a grudge with, or didnt agree with, were often... strongly communicated.

 To be honest, the constant negativity was hard to read. This is why I agree w/Chipper that its not necessarily a bad thing to see if others don't agree with me (though like you, I won't feel good when its not positive).

I don't say this to make you feel bad, Im just asking you to put yourself in the other members' shoes:  you're an Admin and when you're not happy with someone, you let them know about it in pretty strong terms.  How likely are you going to feel any kind of comfortable "challenging" YOU??

 You say when questioned about possible other improper actions "I would never do that", but I hope you see how if you change something to make yourself look better, a reasonable person could conclude that you indeed might?

Again, many of us have been stung by prior experiences elsewhere & I know it colored my reaction when I saw what you'd done. And yes, it did make me wonder about what else might be happening & if I should stick around. Because I dont want any part of that style of leadership/forum.  This is why your apology is truly important to me.

You're reply above to Jega is a really positive one (calm, articulate & not tearing him up). That's what I hope folks expect to see from me as a mod b/c I want people to feel its ok to talk to me. The same should apply to Admins--just my .02

*This* reply is the Nark I know & support.  Though we werent friends "over there" cuz I wasn't a longtimer, I read a ton of your stuff & I'm SO glad to see you again.

Thanks for hearing me out :). Warm regards to you, s&w


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Offline Narkotikon (OP)

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Re: Apology
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2015, 02:25:29 PM »
Thanks for your reply S&W.  The support and the concerns.  I guess I felt my negativity over there was coming from me as a member, not as an admin.  If that didn't come across, I'm sorry.  I know some will disagree, but I do feel like what I said was justified.  I feel completely vindicated now.  I said my peace over there, and I'm completely willing to set things aside and try to get along now. 

As for the concerns of what I "might" do.  I realize that seems a tad illogical.  If I'm willing to change my negative rep, why wouldn't I do it to someone else's rep, or something else?  That's a valid point.  Honestly though, although I get irritated when I receive negative rep.  It really doesn't bother me when others do.  That may seem harsh, but it's true.  Since I'm not upset about it, I don't see the motivation to do anything about it. 

The only time I'd ever change anyone's account would be IF they asked me.  And even then it would depend on the request.  For instance, if someone asked me to delete their negative rep, I'd have to say no.  That's because the person who pointed it out to me explained it like this.  Those points represent other members' votes.  If you delete them, you're basically saying those members don't matter and don't have a say.  So to delete my points, or another member's, I'd be playing dictator.  I don't want this board to be that way either, especially since I hated that so much over there.

If anyone needs further reasoning for why I wouldn't do something like that.  I can tell you that every single action an admin makes is logged and recorded.  You can't even delete the entry until it's been there a day or two.  I'm fairly confident that Chipper, and also possibly Nick, reviews those logs frequently.  I'm sure if they saw something askew, they'd correct it, make it known, and / or address it.  I wouldn't want either of them to be upset with me b/c I like and respect them both.  I wouldn't want them to think less of me.

Also, if anything were changed to someone's account, all they'd have to do is contact Chipper / Nick, let them know what's up, and Chipper / Nick could check the logs to see who did it.  I really don't think illegal changes would be hard to detect, let alone confirm.  That's another reason why I wouldn't do anything like that.  If it were me who did something, not only would Chipper / Nick be upset, but also the member who reported it.  Plus, since we all communicate off-board to some extent, I'm sure that type of thing would get around at some point.  I'd be called out, then be made into a pariah.  I wouldn't want that.  Not.  At.  All. 

It all comes down to trust.  I'd like to think that most people know I'm trustworthy.  If they don't or are on the fence, I can only try to prove myself to be trustworthy and honest over time.  Or, when the voting system is implemented, people would be free to vote me out.  All of these mod / admin positions are temporary until then anyway.  There are times I'd like to be a regular member.  I didn't ask to be an admin.  In fact, the first time Chipper asked me I said "thanks but no thanks."  He made me an admin three days later b/c he said he wanted to expand my communication abilities (that was before the PM system was opened up to regular members). 

I'm incredibly honored and flattered that he chose to do that, and I'll try to do my best in this position, but I'm certainly not as useful or skilled as some other mods / admins.  I don't know IT, and I don't really care to.  The thing I think I'm best at is answering questions and helping when I can.  But then again, I've done that before as a regular member, and I can certainly do that again as one.  Hopefully though, people will realize I'm trying to do the right thing.  The important thing is that we're all talking about this. 
Transparency is necessary to ensure decent staff members get elected. Members need to know when staff are misbehaving, so members can be informed voters.

Offline Sand and Water

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Re: Apology
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2015, 02:43:02 PM »
Thanks for the reply Nark. I appreciate what you said & it's certainly sufficient for me.

ps. Keep your head up, k?
Lose something every day. Accept the fluster
of lost door keys, the hour badly spent.
The art of losing isn't hard to master.
Then practice losing farther, losing faster:
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to travel. None of these will bring disaster.

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Re: Apology
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2015, 02:50:40 PM »
whoops, I gave you an applaud +1 prior to reading the last part about not participating , sowwy.
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Offline Narkotikon (OP)

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Re: Apology
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2015, 03:45:26 PM »
whoops, I gave you an applaud +1 prior to reading the last part about not participating , sowwy.

LOL.  No problem.  It's deleted now. 
Transparency is necessary to ensure decent staff members get elected. Members need to know when staff are misbehaving, so members can be informed voters.

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Re: Apology
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2015, 06:45:12 PM »
I kind of liked the no negative rep on the phile. It might not be meant that way, but it hurts peoples feelings in a "What's wrong with me??" Kind of way apparently.

For a bit I would turn off my rep, but then I would get rep and it popped back on.  Ryan is a whiny bitch or sumwhat.

If it hurts people so much maybe the admins should just remove all the negative rep.  We can have a gentleman's agreement not to neg folks, and just move on until chipper figures out another option.

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Re: Apology
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2015, 11:52:38 PM »
I dono why your so sensitive about getting negative karma points. All that means is someone disagreed with you. A lot of times thats a good thing.

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Re: Apology
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2015, 01:00:53 AM »
Thanks for the explaination, Nark.  While I don't have a problem with you not participating in the Karma system, I do have a problem if we all don't have the choice or option to opt out.  If it is something only you can do because you are an admin, then I don't think it is fair to the rest of us.

I personally like even the negative karma.  When someone disagrees with me, through karma or on the board directly, it gives me the opportunity to examine my original position, learn about someone else's perspective and it helps me grow as a person.  I find I learn the most from people who irk me and challenge my status quo!

However this plays out, with the negative karma being removed, or individual opt out, my ONLY concern is everyone has equal access to ALL options.  If not, these little perks that us regular members don't have I could might have a polarizing effect on the board!
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