I shoulda fucking listened...

[Chip]

if I were you, I'd give a quick taper a go - your tolerance is way down now and being a partial antagonist, your receptors now have more of their natural endorphins on them.

weeks, not a year ! no way, I say. you may find that 2/4 mg. will hold you in a few days. try it out and let us know if you have the will.

[Dog Food]

Less is more with bupe,  ive never needed more than 4mg per day (after the first day or two)

And the only way to get used to the shitty orange chemical taste is to switch to the white generic tablets.  They just came out with a new teva brand i got last month, theyre a lil smaller and thinner than the actavis brand with the moon on one side.   The orange generics are even worse than the strips in my opinion.

[Dopeless Hopefiend (OP)]

The orange generic 8mg tabs are exactly what I have @Dog Food & they are fucking horrible. I know I'm not getting my full dose, because I end up spitting out a mouthful of orange-ish spit after it (mostly) desolves. Fuckin' horrible this shit. My first couple of doses in office were generic white subutex and that may have been even worse.

[Griffin]

yeah I will reiterate what chip said, and tell you the lower the better, when I had an insane habit, the most i ever needed was 4mg and most people thought I could of got by on 2. Of course my doc was prescribing me 20mgs a day but as has been said on here to be a sub doc takes an hour long symposium and they are not by any means or stretch of the imagination an addiction doctor or expert. So you maybe pleasantly surprised to see 2mgs holds you just fine when you are stable.

Weirdly enough I ended up liking the subs taste after about 6 months I was on brand name strips. I think that is normal to be spitting out some orange stuff idk, I have either super over active saliva glands or dry mouth from too much weed, and they told me not to swallow so I'd have this HUGE disgusting amount of spit in my mouth for 30 mins to an hour try to get all of it in my system, then spit out what seemed like a gallon which was orange colored. Sorry if that is TMI, like I felt like I had taken 2 swigs of listerine and held it in my mouth for an hour, with chipmunk cheeks because of how much nasty spit I was holding trying to get it all.'

I don't think that is normal after about 4 months, i started swallowing the spit(not the film) and didn't have a problem. Again maybe a bit TMI but when I started just swallowing the nasty spit it actually helped a tiny bit with what was the worst constipation in my opiate career, it was the weirdest thing within a week of going on MMT my bowel movements became completely normal and its been like that sense after suffering years from it being so awful while strung out and worse on subs. 

[MoeMentim]

  I've been on & off bupe a bunch, (never from mmt though)  I'd usually take 8-16 mg the first day depending on how much i needed, then I'd always taper down quick to 2-4mg a day.  never noticed any significant difference in how i felt when I was on 4mg than if I'd took 16 that day.  Sometimes the difference between 2mg & 4 was noticeable though.  Splitting my dose to twice a day helped a lot to keep from getting groggy the few hours before dose time & helped me keep my daily dose as low as possible.  It's been a while, but I remember railing it a lot to avoid the taste. 

  Sorry to hear about the PW's, that had to suck big time.  I've always been super-paranoid of that happening so I made myself suffer till i was sure.  Fuck that doctor for not listening to you...

[Chip]

I think they all over prescribe to err on the side of safety - nobody's going to OD from Heroin on such a high dose and low ceiling on euphoria and dose-response.

never tried it myself but I have seen a friend do this - dose high then get by on a fraction of their dose.

I'm sticking with MD for now.

[Dopeless Hopefiend (OP)]

I took 12mg today, probably actually got about 9 or 10 in me in reality. There was still a sliver under my tongue both times when I finally couldn't stand the taste anymore & had to spit. I don't quite get why I can't just swallow them. Would it not work just like any oral meds? Shit for that matter, I'd almost rather keister the fucking things than hold them in my mouth. Seems like that'd be as effective as the sublingual route. I'm (sort of) kidding, but man.
On a positive note, it was in the 80s here today & guess who wasn't sweating? Yep, this girl. And with the whole legal weed thing my lovely state voted for I got to go to my nearest cannabis shop and buy a big fat bag of beautiful bud for the first time in years, because I don't have to worry about a ua & losing my take-outs. And I lost 13lbs in the week since I stopped the 'done. 

[Griffin]

welp now I am jealous! It's such bs being in a legal state and not being able to smoke when I have nausea and stuff, plus when I was a stoner I was super healthy, and way more health conscious with food. Anyone notice how stoners are usually skinny, I blame not smoking as well as md for being fat. However I had a UA at the first of the month a few months ago and smoked for the first time in about 2 years, and hated it. It was supposed to be indica but I was tripping waiting for it to end so I could get some sleep. That used to be fun, now not so much.

[MoeMentim]

That definitely happens to me if i stop smoking herb for a long time, I love the stuff enough to push past it & I always get used to it again & am not bothered by paranoia after a couple weeks of regular smoking.  If you miss it try edibles - I never get any paranoia/jitters that way even if it was made with a sativa. 

[Dopeless Hopefiend (OP)]

  I've been on & off bupe a bunch, (never from mmt though)  I'd usually take 8-16 mg the first day depending on how much i needed, then I'd always taper down quick to 2-4mg a day.  never noticed any significant difference in how i felt when I was on 4mg than if I'd took 16 that day.  Sometimes the difference between 2mg & 4 was noticeable though.  Splitting my dose to twice a day helped a lot to keep from getting groggy the few hours before dose time & helped me keep my daily dose as low as possible.  It's been a while, but I remember railing it a lot to avoid the taste. 

  Sorry to hear about the PW's, that had to suck big time.  I've always been super-paranoid of that happening so I made myself suffer till i was sure.  Fuck that doctor for not listening to you...

How quick did you taper down to the lower dose? This is my 4th day taking it, but day 1 was that PWD hell & I honestly can't even remember how much I took. Maybe 20mg? After that day I've been taking I've 12 - 16mg a day. Everyone keeps telling me less is more with this shit, but I just want to feel stable. I'm sleeping like shit, no appetite, weepy, tired. I thought subs were supposed to make me feel good. Not like full agonist opiate good, but...normal at least.

[Z]

A part of me that thinks if I ever do quit done I will just narcan myself to get er done with as quick as possible.  The naloxone should rip all the opiates off your receptors and reduce a long drawn out hell to a short intense kill me hell.

As it stands now though, I want to stay on for a while longer.

My understanding of the no swallowing is that bike is absorbed poorly in your gut.  You likely could swallow them, but you would need significantly more.  You probably could just put it in your butt honestly.  I don't know the numbers, but it follows the usual pattern of these things.

[Griffin]

For me when I was taking bupe i always took 3-7 days to start feeling normal physically, it didn't help me mentally though. I would feel tired, have a lot of neck and leg pain, depressed, and wouldn't sleep very good until at least day 3. So I'd give it a few more days especially cause the pwd. After day 10-14 if your still feeling bad, then it may not work all the great for you but everyones different on how it effects them, how long it takes to get back to normal and such.

[Zoops]

yeah I will reiterate what chip said, and tell you the lower the better, when I had an insane habit, the most i ever needed was 4mg and most people thought I could of got by on 2. Of course my doc was prescribing me 20mgs a day but as has been said on here to be a sub doc takes an hour long symposium and they are not by any means or stretch of the imagination an addiction doctor or expert. So you maybe pleasantly surprised to see 2mgs holds you just fine when you are stable.

Weirdly enough I ended up liking the subs taste after about 6 months I was on brand name strips. I think that is normal to be spitting out some orange stuff idk, I have either super over active saliva glands or dry mouth from too much weed, and they told me not to swallow so I'd have this HUGE disgusting amount of spit in my mouth for 30 mins to an hour try to get all of it in my system, then spit out what seemed like a gallon which was orange colored. Sorry if that is TMI, like I felt like I had taken 2 swigs of listerine and held it in my mouth for an hour, with chipmunk cheeks because of how much nasty spit I was holding trying to get it all.'

I don't think that is normal after about 4 months, i started swallowing the spit(not the film) and didn't have a problem. Again maybe a bit TMI but when I started just swallowing the nasty spit it actually helped a tiny bit with what was the worst constipation in my opiate career, it was the weirdest thing within a week of going on MMT my bowel movements became completely normal and its been like that sense after suffering years from it being so awful while strung out and worse on subs.

 I noticed that MY bupe-induced constipation went away when I started swallowing the juice in my mouth from the tablets (this was a while back). I think it's the naloxone unblocking opiates from receptors in the gut. But naloxone isn't absorbed into systemic circulation by the oral route. Perfect!

...and if I ran out, I first noticed (before w/d sx's kicked in) that I had a LOT of pain in my shoulders/neck. Everytime my PST starts to wear off, like if I'm on half-rations because I'm waiting on a bag in the mail, I get that same pain coming back.

[Z]

Everybody seems to be different with how the sick hits them.  For me it starts in my legs and calves.  Always.  My wife says it starts in her forearms.  I don't know if it's a psychosomatic response, or if everyone really is unique.  I am curious to know the why of it.

[MoeMentim]

How quick did you taper down to the lower dose? This is my 4th day taking it, but day 1 was that PWD hell & I honestly can't even remember how much I took. Maybe 20mg? After that day I've been taking I've 12 - 16mg a day. Everyone keeps telling me less is more with this shit, but I just want to feel stable. I'm sleeping like shit, no appetite, weepy, tired. I thought subs were supposed to make me feel good. Not like full agonist opiate good, but...normal at least.

It'd take me a week at least to get down to my 2-4mg target, but take as long as you need, I'm not sure if or how much the pwd's you went through throw a wrench into the whole first week or two.  Might be that you need more for a while.  As long as you have those physical symptoms hanging on, I'd keep taking 8-16mg or whatever you need.  I think if the PWD's didn't happen you'd be feeling better than you are today, some of that, or after-effects still hanging on i reckon.  Once that stuff is gone it shouldn't be too (physically) uncomfortable tapering.  Mostly a mental battle in my experience.

 

[Griffin]

I have a question, if anyone could answer it for me, or if dopeless hopefiend could state your experience when it comes up. It seemed like when I got on bupe I'd start feeling normal around 3-4 days but after a week it became insanely hard to stay on the subs because the cravings, and depression were so bad. I always thought that when I was on subs the day when all of the other opiates were completely out of my system I'd start feeling a lot worse. Does that make sense?

Like say I was taking morphine er before getting on subs, after 3 days on subs I start feeling normal, then somewhere around day 7-10, the mental part of the w/d would come on and become terrible. I believed that since it took 7-10 days for the morphine er to be out of my system completely that it was covering up some of the receptors that the bupe didn't, and when the morphine finally fell off those receptors the bupe didn't cover them and it would make me go through the mental part of the w/d with symptoms like cravings, depression, anxiety, insomnia, and such.

Since you will probably have done in your system for 2-4 weeks if after you start feeling normal your mental w/d gets worse out of nowhere and feels like your in paws let me know. Does anyone have a similar experience or knows what was actually happening. I guess it could be that after time since the bupe wasn't helping my depression and cravings it just continued to get worse and worse until I couldn't take it anymore, and it had nothing to do with the other drug, it's just that it wore me down and snowballed until it was unbearable.