subs just dont work like they used to anymore

[Dog Food (OP)]

So, it looks like tomorrows gonna be the day ill have to start back on my subs again, ive been putting it off every morning for weeks now.  It would be fine if they worked like they used to, but even at like 20hrs after my last shot, i still get some pwd.  Its like they make me feel even worse for the first day, then it takes a few days of shitty feeling to start to feel better on them.

It seems like people whove been on subs for years, then relapse, then have a real hard time getting them to work anymore.  I used to be able to use till midnight, then some  sub on the way to work at 10-11 and would be 90% cool.  Anyone else have problems getting back on subs?   After being on em for years maybe too?

[Chip]

It's because your long term tolerance has grown and will continue to do so even if you simply maintained - the time factor.

You may experience some gain in the short term but the long term tolerance will continue growing unless you stop and never use opiates again.

Sorry to say ...

[QueensVet]

Its true bro, I been on my meds for a solid few months now, where as before I would jump on and off, which messed my tolerance up bad. As time goes on, seems my receptors get tired of juggling between the two that it takes a few days to adjust. But now lifes just simple how I just take then and just go about my day.

I also feel, from my past relapses, that subs blasted my tolerance to the point I gotta spend at least 80$ to get in my zone. But at least im not juggling anymore, lifes monotonous but at least I can manage some aspects of my life now.

[Taytoechip]

subs are not a very good option for every other day opiate wd.
The numbers just dont add up. Its no miracle drug that will allow you to get high on your DOC at night, then stay well on the bupe through the day, only to get high at night. any substance you intake into your body for any amount of time will build a tolerance.

you may have noticed a huge spike in tolerance because of the bupe, but chances are, you are also using a bupe dose that is many many many times larger than a dose that would work.

[Dog Food (OP)]

Yeah, ive been around the subs and dope for about ten years, did the back n forth thing about 3-7 years ago for a few years. Got on probation 3 years ago and stayed on sub, not once did i use in a lil over 2 years.  Now i wasnt doing large amounts of sub, i was iving about 1-1.5 mgs of bupe per day, or less if i only did one shot per day. 

Then i got off probation, and tried some dope one night. (very bad idea, within 5 months i lost everything, over 15k, my job, every possession almost, and im back to the daily grind) well as anyone thats been on sub that long i didnt do much for fear of overdosing and didnt get to where i wanted that night and did it the next day too. Well that turned into a week waiting for my next day off to get back on sub, then before i knew it i was months in.

I tried to take some sub several times, and all it did was make me feel worse(like pwd) every time, even 20hrs since last dose.  The very first sub i tried,( in this run) put me in pwd for about 35hrs. I could only lay in my bed shaking in agony. You know what i mean if youve experienced this.

Its not as much of the back and forth that i feel did this, i feel like it was the years of being on sub that sorta burned out my receptors, cause i never really got that super nodding high, just felt good till i passed out. I was immediately doing a gram a day pretty much. I know ive read something years ago about bupe ruining your receptors or something like other

[Griffin]

When I was doing subs, I couldn't stay clean to save my life. It seemed like every time I went back on the subs which was probably like once a week, it got worse. I only went through pwd once when I did my intake at the doctors office so I can't imagine having to do that more than once, my gf at the time would take it at 16 hours in and be fine and I was scared of going through it again I think the shortest I waited was 20 hours I'd usually wait the 24.

Taytoe called what happened to me, I ended up having to take 200-300 mgs of oxy 3-4x a day because I jacked my tolerance up with subs really bad cause I had way to much money. I ended up going to done where I was taking 280 a day, and then I got arrested and took 4 months off and 90 holds me fine.

The subs never worked for me though, it seemed like it would take a week to not be in withdrawal atleast a little bit and after that I was in mental hell super depressed and anxious with horrible cravingss the whole time the longest I would make it was 3 weeks. I got on MMT and all that went away, and I've been able to do 2.5 years clean with the help of probation threatening jail if I fuck up and MMT given me no real reason to fall off the wagon. Good luck, you may want to try MMT it's not quite the devil people make it out to be... Unless you try to get off.

[Opi-ette]

Griffin (or anyone else that can answer), are you saying that Methadone is harder to get off of than Suboxone? Which is harder to taper off of? From what I read, methadone is a life time type of treatment but suboxone is used to taper off of all opiates?

I ask because my brother is starting suboxone this week and I want to help him.

Thanks!

[Griffin]

I haven't tapered on either or come off of subs, and I have only come off methadone in jail so I don't have any first hand experience. From what I can tell is that the w/d from done is much more prolonged around day 5-7 starts getting bad 7-10 is horrible then after days 10-14 it starts getting a little better but I was feeling some minor w/d symptoms after being off for 4 months, like hot/cold sweats, anxiety, insomnia, diarrhea, no energy or strength.

I have heard different accounts for coming off subs  some say its easy some say its the hardest thing they have ever come off of, so it may be dependent on the person, dose, and length of use. I think both subs and done can be long term or short term and no one should be forced off of it and shouldn't get off unless they want to personally no matter how long they have been on it.

I see a lot of uneducated people mostly on facebook talk about how subs should only be used short term and if its used for longer than a certain period its just swapping one drug for the other. It pisses me off i seriously hate people who don't know what they are talking about or have recently got clean and now think anyone on maintenance is a dirty junkie now hopefully that perception changes.

[St. Theresa]

Fuck story of my life. Subs. Dope dope dope subs dope subs dope dope dope today I started subs again and have started shooting coke to help get my mind off all the sickness. Sucks

[Opi-ette]

Thanks for your reply Griffin. He hasn't started the subs yet and when I suggested methadone he was totally anti-done so I was just wanting to have an idea about it.

When I read about you going cold turkey in jail, my heart hurts for you. I can't imagine the horror of it. I know a lot of people kick while they're in jail and its so messed up that they don't give you anything to help the withdrawals.
Cold turkey at home is bad enough but in jail takes to to another level.

Thanks again!

[Chip]

<snip> are you saying that Methadone is harder to get off of than Suboxone?
<snip>

I'd agree, yes Methadone is harder because it is a FULL agonist, so PARTIAL agonists like Subs are better suited for tapers BUT if you take both of them long enough, it's bound to be just as tricky (the time factor) ... i think, anyway.

if i could do it all again, i would not have used Methadone but it's too late for me ... i am stuck on a Methadone taper and finding it difficult to go any lower due to my current lifestyle but switching to Subs might be an option (i am on a low dose of 22.5 mg. MD).

i'd say that Methadone is more suitable for long-term maintenance over Subs.

all you Subs users have a great tool there IF you truly want to be opiate free.

[nikita70]

I haven't tapered on either or come off of subs, and I have only come off methadone in jail so I don't have any first hand experience. From what I can tell is that the w/d from done is much more prolonged around day 5-7 starts getting bad 7-10 is horrible then after days 10-14 it starts getting a little better but I was feeling some minor w/d symptoms after being off for 4 months, like hot/cold sweats, anxiety, insomnia, diarrhea, no energy or strength.

I have heard different accounts for coming off subs  some say its easy some say its the hardest thing they have ever come off of, so it may be dependent on the person, dose, and length of use. I think both subs and done can be long term or short term and no one should be forced off of it and shouldn't get off unless they want to personally no matter how long they have been on it.

I see a lot of uneducated people mostly on facebook talk about how subs should only be used short term and if its used for longer than a certain period its just swapping one drug for the other. It pisses me off i seriously hate people who don't know what they are talking about or have recently got clean and now think anyone on maintenance is a dirty junkie now hopefully that perception changes.

Shit, this bloodcurdling title has attracted my attention and a shot was trembling me as I have seen it... Fucking subs... it's what I have to switch for in next week probably, willy-nilly, after this dumbass ignorant shrink has been giving me an ultimatum/choice between to cancel my takehomes (and therefore mess/ruin my life completely) or let me get off of the benzos. Shit, mission impossible.
I have some modest experience with switching for a bupe, it was actually easier than I have expected (my aquitances have been telling me some really horror stories), however, it was happening about 10years before, I was younger, way healthier/stronger than nowadays and-what is probably crucial-really strong motivated and focused on "restart" my life, as now I find myself to feel all against it. Totally embittered and lost. This is one of those very few things that have had happen to me never again . 

[theluciddreamers]

I have switched back and forth only a handful of times. I actually think these past few days would be my 6th time. I can say I never had a problem getting back on them, but I lso think that I never have gotten off of them long enough for it to totally be out of my system.   I think that could be a reason why I never had a issue getting back on them. Yes my induction first time blew fucking dick, and it took about a week to feel 90% normal. I do remember being mentally clear headed the day of the induction, kinda like the clouds had lifted in my brain, but I was also abusing seed tea, pods, And whatever else I could get my junkie hands on. 

Everytime I went on a holiday I would only stop using for 36 hours max.  Then, use what I wanted for a day or two, and then hop back on the subs. Shit I did that exact formula with seed tea, and I took my next dose maybe 12 hours after my last glass of tea.  Never experienced PWD, but I did have to use around the exact amount of tea as I did when I was at my worse.  The lower I get on my sub maintance the less I need to get off. Shit I'm usually on 2mg a day depending on the day but thats where I hover.  I got 80mg of oxy and was able to get decently high that night.  I mean its not like I get nodding from it but I defintly get high.  A year ago I would have given my left nut to have my WD covered by 80mg of oxy a day.  But seeds are pretty heavy and if I would have realized how strong they really had been or how quickly you go from nothing to everything just to get high, lol I would have never touched them. Didn't help that they are legal to buy and way fucking cheaper than buying pharms.

Has anyone else noticed that if they go off subs for a few days to use that the transition feels like nothing at all? 

Also hearing and reading about people saying that they eventually don't work scares me enough to not fuck with switching back and forth to much.  Shit I went 5 months I think just being on subs and no other opiates.  Didn't really have any cravings, but was on and off low doses of addy too.  Which I am ADD so taken something I should and use to be on helps a lot for me as far as my addiction and crav ings.

[Roman Totale]

Shit, this bloodcurdling title has attracted my attention and a shot was trembling me as I have seen it... Fucking subs... it's what I have to switch for in next week probably, willy-nilly, after this dumbass ignorant shrink has been giving me an ultimatum/choice between to cancel my takehomes (and therefore mess/ruin my life completely) or let me get off of the benzos. Shit, mission impossible.
I have some modest experience with switching for a bupe, it was actually easier than I have expected (my aquitances have been telling me some really horror stories), however, it was happening about 10years before, I was younger, way healthier/stronger than nowadays and-what is probably crucial-really strong motivated and focused on "restart" my life, as now I find myself to feel all against it. Totally embittered and lost. This is one of those very few things that have had happen to me never again . 

Not to be a cheerleader, but I'm sure you can handle the switch over to bupe, especially if you've still got some benzos at your disposal, and especially if it doesn't feel like a despairing situation. 

You just have to accept feeling like total shit before you "induct" onto the bupe (to avoid PWD), and then feeling somewhat shitty for a while until your "system" readjusts. 

There's nothing inherently special about methadone, right?  It's just a strong synthetic narcotic.  People go from dope habits, oxycodone habits, hydromorphone habits, other synthetic narcotic habits, etc. onto bupe, and at least some of them manage fine. 

Even though it isn't going to feel the same, or as normalizing, as methadone, it is at least survivable.  And to survive is all we can really hope for, isn't it?

Oh, and the saying "less is more" is definitely true of bupe, but it's not the case when you are first getting on it -- you'll probably need a decent dose to get started, but then you can ideally get down quickly below the threshold (2mg?) where the prodrug, norbuprenorphine, starts to take over and act as a full-agonist.

[Guts]

The only difference is methadone has a long half life and, because it does, it builds up in your system. This makes switching without getting PWD a challenge. Most recommend tapering down to 30 mgs before even trying.