Conscious Stoicism—The New Same Old Face of Masculinity.

[Guts]

Yeah I'm going to bow out while I'm ahead... all yours Zoops 

[thetalkingasshole]

This will hopefully stay civil

Zoops I love you but tread lightly
I assume because you described divorce that you were not entirely for that in your own case

Lets try and remember everyone here has been the only person to live their life.

[candy]

I have to admit I was pretty ugly towards my ex-husband when our marriage started to crumble.
Although he made things difficult himself, I did not treat him with much respect or regard at all.

But when it came to our divorce, I was not about to kick him when he was down. He did not want the divorce, it was my choice.
I was the main breadwinner in our family and my ex did not make very much money at all. He was forced to get roommates in the home he moved into with his son.

I went for joint custody and both of us agreed to no child support on either side and open visitation.
I felt it was the easiest way for us to both come of the end of our marriage without too many hard feelings. There was already enough emotional turmoil, without court orders and mandated visiting hours.

It has worked out OK.

I know this may sound strange, but I don't feel that all men should be required to pay child support.
If my ex would of been required to pay child support, there would of been no way he could have paid all his bills each month and purchase food.
He had to borrow money from my parents a few times because things had been so difficult for him and my parents felt sorry for him.
I myself gave him money from time to time. I really didn't mind. He was the father of my child and did not bring up my drug use in court or use it to get custody.
I am so very thankful that he did not try to fuck me over in court. He knew I had a problem and would never harm our child.
Plus, he was always there for me when I needed someone, even after our divorce.

Sorry for the long message. I do think that society is changing and the way we behave towards one another has certainly changed.
I see it all the time, people too rushed to hold open a door, driving like an asshole because they are in a rush, rudely talking loudly on their phone in a public place. All rude behavior and certainly not gender based.

Yes, I think it is really nice when a man holds the door, but I also feel that there is no reason a woman cannot do the same for a man or another woman as well.

[Narkotikon]

I didn't like the article simply because I know how I am, and I am anything but a man who embraces traditional masculinity and its stereotypes.

I would literally rather die than be forced to live my life as a stereotypical man. Never wanted it. Never appealed to me. Still doesn't. Never will.

I don't think men and women are all that different. We all have emotions, feelings, wants and needs. I think people will always vary, as on a bell curve as Zoops mentioned.

But I think most of the supposed "differences" between men and women have been handed down, generation after generation, as learned and expected behaviors.

It's human nature to emulate what we see, especially when young. I think it would be interesting to raise several male and female children in genderless vacuums.

There would be no male or female gender roles, expectations, or activities. The children would simply grow according to their own desires and inclinations.

I'd be interested in knowing how similar or dissimilar the fully developed children behaved as adults, compared to adults who had been raised outside those conditions in the world we all know.

In the end I think the most important thing is for men and women to be themselves, living as they truly are, without the controls and influences of extraneous people, cultures, societal conventions, etc.

If some people truly end up wanting to conform to gender roles and stereotypes, so be it.

But I don't think those people should try to instill those roles in others, or expect others to conform to their definition of how men and women act and behave.

γνῶθι σεαυτόν / nosce te ipsum / know yourself, then live that way authentically each day, ever mindful that your self identify isn't usually going to be reflected in others, nor should it be.

[Zoops]

Exactly, Candy.

No, St. T. I was not a model husband. She was far from a model wife.

But I was a good father, and brought home like twice as much as my ex did. I provided for the family quite well. She definitely kicked me when I was down. She still insisted, in court, with her lawyer whispering in her ear, that I pay $1200/mo in child support (for one child) while I was in jail! Luckily the judge didn't go for that. But when I got out, it went back up to $1200/mo, which was fine as long as I was still making boucoups money, but then I got locked up again, and the amount Didn't get lowered again! It stacked up like that for more than a year 1200 a month, because she wouldn't cooperate with the attorney that I had paid to try and straighten it out! Now, I'm paying $300 a month and I plan on contacting her soon (which will have been after a couple months of payments again), to ask her if she can find it in her heart to somehow mitigate the payments.

I'm planning on getting a surprised "oh I didn't know you were paying it again, thanks." reply from her. Because she and her new hubby have so much money, and I have basically NONE, it makes no difference to my son if she gets that extra $300 a month, because his life is fine. I'd feel completely differently about it if she was actually having trouble feeding him or something like that, but she's not, far from it. I could use that $300 a month. Now I have about $13k in back child support that it won't be easy to pay off, because at the rate I'm paying now, I'm covering the monthly obligation, but I'm actually getting further into the hole with the interest on the arrears, paying $300 a month. If that obligation were to cease, I'd be paying $300 a month towards the arrears, and it would be paid off in like 5 or 6 years. She'd still be getting payments for 5 or 6 years from now if the obligation stopped. I'm not looking forward to that conversation.  Nervous about it.