dopetalk
Core Topics => Drugs => Phenethylamines => Topic started by: Chip on February 13, 2016, 09:54:07 PM
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http://theinfluence.org/neuroscientist-meth-is-virtually-identical-to-adderall-this-is-how-i-found-out/
(originally posted on facebook by candy)
Neuroscientist: Meth Is Virtually Identical to Adderall—This Is How I Found Out
(https://forum.drugs-and-users.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftheinfluence.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F02%2FCarl-Hart.jpg&hash=1fadbaaed1f44b45d6f4475804d3d5f21e1f8f45)
Carl Hart
The long subway ride from DC’s airport to Silver Spring was unusually pleasant. It had been about an hour since I had taken a low dose of methamphetamine. It was my 40th birthday—October 30, 2006—and I was headed to a National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA)-sponsored meeting.
A friend, who had a prescription for the drug, had given me a couple of pills as a gift, knowing that I was an expert on amphetamines but had never actually taken any myself. I sat on the train feeling alert, mentally stimulated, and euphorically serene.
And when the effects had worn off after a few hours, I thought, “that was nice,” worked out, and enjoyed a productive two-day meeting. Well, maybe not enjoyed—it was a NIDA meeting after all. But I didn’t crave the drug or feel the need to take any more. I certainly didn’t engage in any unusual behaviors—hardly the stereotypical picture of a “meth head.”
So why is it, then, that the general public has such a radically different view of this drug?
Perhaps it has something to do with public “educational” campaigns aimed at discouraging methamphetamine use. These campaigns usually show, in graphically horrifying detail, some poor young person who uses the drug for the first time and then ends up engaging in uncharacteristic acts such as prostitution, stealing from parents, or assaulting strangers for money to buy the drug. At the end of advertisement, emblazoned on the screen, is: “Meth—not even once.” We’ve also seen those infamous “meth mouth” images (extreme tooth decay), wrongly presented as a direct consequence of methamphetamine use.
These types of media campaigns neither prevent nor decrease the use of the drug; nor do they provide any real facts about the effects of meth. They succeed only in perpetuating false assumptions.
Swayed by this messaging, the public remains almost entirely ignorant of the fact that methamphetamine produces nearly identical effects to those produced by the popular ADHD medication d-amphetamine (dextroamphetamine). You probably know it as Adderall®: a combination of amphetamine and d-amphetamine mixed salts.
Yeah, I know. This statement requires some defense.
This is not to suggest that people who are currently prescribed Adderall should discontinue its use for fear of inevitable ruinous addiction, but instead that we should view methamphetamine rather more like we view d-amphetamine. Remember that methamphetamine and d-amphetamine are both FDA-approved medications to treat ADHD. In addition, methamphetamine is approved to treat obesity and d-amphetamine to treat narcolepsy.
In the interest of full disclosure, I too once believed that methamphetamine was far more dangerous than d-amphetamine, despite the fact that the chemical structure of the two drugs is nearly identical (see figure). In the late 1990s, when I was a PhD student, I was told—and I fully believed—that the addition of the methyl group to methamphetamine made it more lipid-soluble (translation: able to enter the brain more rapidly) and therefore more addictive than d-amphetamine.
It wasn’t until several years after graduate school that this belief was shattered by evidence not only from my own research, but also by results from research conducted by other scientists.
In our study, we brought 13 men who regularly used methamphetamine into the lab. We gave each of them a hit of methamphetamine, of d-amphetamine, or of placebo on separate days under double-blind conditions. We repeated this many times with each person over several days and multiple doses of each drug.
Like d-amphetamine, methamphetamine increased our subjects’ energy and enhanced their ability to focus and concentrate; it also reduced subjective feelings of tiredness and the cognitive disruptions typically brought about by fatigue and/or sleep deprivation. Both drugs increased blood pressure and the rate at which the heart beat. No doubt these are the effects that justify the continued use of d-amphetamine by several nations’ militaries, including our own.
And when offered an opportunity to choose either the drugs or varying amounts of money, our subjects chose to take d-amphetamine on a similar number of occasions as they chose to take methamphetamine. These regular methamphetamine users could not distinguish between the two. (It is possible that the methyl group enhances methamphetamine’s lipid-solubility, but this effect appears to be imperceptible to human consumers.)
It is also true that the effects of smoking methamphetamine are more intense than those of swallowing a pill containing d-amphetamine. But that increased intensity is due to the route of administration, not the drug itself. Smoking d-amphetamine produces nearly identical intense effects as smoking methamphetamine. The same would be true if the drugs were snorted intranasally.
As I left DC and travelled home to New York, I reflected on how I had previously participated in misleading the public by hyping the dangers of methamphetamine. For example, in one of my earlier studies, aimed at documenting the powerfully addictive nature of the drug, I found that when given a choice between taking a small hit of meth (10 mg) or one dollar in cash, methamphetamine users chose the drug about half the time.
For me, in 2001, this suggested that the drug was addictive. But what it really showed was my own ignorance and bias. Because, as I found out in a later study, if I had increased the cash amount to as little as five dollars, the users would have taken the money almost all of the time—even though they knew they would have to wait several weeks until the end of the study before getting the cash.
All of this should serve as a lesson on how media distortions can influence even scientific knowledge about the consequences of drug use.
It took me nearly 20 years and dozens of scientific publications in the area of drug use to recognize my own biases around methamphetamine. I can only hope that you don’t require as much time and scientific activity in order to understand that the Adderall that you or your loved one takes each day is essentially the same drug as meth.
And I hope that this knowledge engenders less judgment of people who use meth, and greater empathy.
Carl L. Hart is a professor (in psychiatry) at Columbia University. He is also the author of the book High Price: A neuroscientist’s journey of self-discovery that challenges everything you know about drugs and society. You can follow him on Twitter: @drcarlhart
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I found there to be some subtle differences between d-amp and methamp. For instance, d-amp produces more increased HR than a similar dose of methamp.
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...but if someone gave me a choice between, say 50mg of d-amp and 50mg of methamp, I'd take the d-amp every time. Dexedrine is a good stimulant. Love those orange and brown capsules it comes in.
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They say the same thing about morphine and heroin... what I want to know is if this still holds the same for street heroin and street meth... that's what most people are actually using. I know street heroin has a lot of intermediary and leftover compounds and is not just pure diamorphine. I wonder what all else is in street meth that adds to the psychoactive effects?
Either way, it's good to see credible sources waking up and not talking out of their ass. Also, I fully support him actually taking the shit. It's like dedicating your life to cars but never ever driving... You'd think that he'd have some interest in the stuff, no? Even just plain curiosity? I can remember my adolescent self wondering what it felt like to be "high". I guess it's a little bit like trying to explain colors to a blind man. At the very least, don't sober people think that this shit must be *really* fucking good if people are willing to "throw their lives away" for it?
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I find less body load with d-meth vs. d-amp.
my life changed for the worse with d-meth (and quickly too) and I only changed because I could no longer access d-amp after 15 years on it (diverted).
It's virtually impossible for me to get d-amp despite being prescribed it once (script was pulled by another doctor for NO valid reason) ... which fucked me up.
I'm not asking to legalise d-meth but I'm pissed off that d-amp isn't prescribed for maintenance.
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This guy was on a talk show with that guy from "Fear Factor" forget his name right now - Oh yeah Joe Rogan. He has a good point of view on drugs. Libertarian I think, which I am behind 100%.
Anyhow, that being said, I think it's sort of sloppy and not professional for him to say "meth is just like Adderall, because I took them both and the feeling was the same to me." Sounds like something you'd read on here, fer crissake!
Methamphetamine does indeed have more predominant central action than straight amphetamine. And Adderall contains like 25% l-amphetamine (the less active R-enantiomer), so Adderall's flavour is influenced a lot by that being present in its formulation. Some clinicians believe that the l-amphetamine provides some boost in efficacy in the treatment of ADHD.
I think if people want to actually make a difference in the meth "epidemic" sweeping the globe, the powers-that-be must get on board with d-amp or something like mixed amp salts (Adderall) for maintenance. Shit, if dopers can get methadone, why can't the tweakers get some pep pills?
Dexies to get up in the morning and some temaz to go to sleep at night, methadone for a general sense of well-being during the daytime, and I'd be perfect a wreck in three weeks.
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you don't need benzos to sleep once you get on Dex daily because it tends to burn you out during the daytime, as long as your dose is steady and not exceeding 30-ish mg.
that dex-methadone-benzo regimen is so familiar all the same :)
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yeah, you're right. Last time I took 30mg of Dexedrine, two 15mg spansules dissolved in a cup of black coffee, I was flying, FLYIN', son!! Like I actually was physically flying around like a goddamn bird. Swear to GOD!
Stuff should be prescription-only. I can't believe they give it to little kids.
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It's uncommon but severe ADHD is effectively treated with about 40 mg amphetamine.
it works well for them, Zoops - I have seen it in action.
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Oh no question about it. I am not disagreeing with you there one bit. I do however think stimulants are a tad overprescribed these days. The first thing that a five year old troublemaker does not need is a Ritalin prescription. Behavior modification ála CBT, although not as "fun" as some good ol' speed, can be effective too.
I mean for kids that just have poor impulse control, but not so much attention problems. Attention-seeking can sometimes masquerade as ADHD.
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... but not over-prescribed for those that know it would greatly help them. like me.
It's all a bit fucked up but I could rely less on methamp if I could secure a Dex script.
... and maybe that would lead to a job instead of this up and down trip that I find myself on - it's damn hard to manage the way it is.
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You guys really think that D-Amp would work for our fellow tweakers like methadone does for us junkies? Has it ever been done before or is it done anywhere right now? I know a lot of people claim otherwise, but isn't the medical stance on amphetamines one that says they don't cause physical addiction? I guess psychological addiction isn't any less real... honestly, my first thought about meth users getting amps for replacement therapy is "its not the same"! However, if I try to think about it past that, I don't really have any good reason as to why it's not...
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It's being done in Sydney BUT you can't be on Methadone (I'm out) and you must ultimately seek abstinence (I'm out).
so I'm fucked.
give up Methadone ? I'm trying.
go straight ? not realistic.
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It's being done in Sydney BUT you can't be on Methadone (I'm out) and you must ultimately seek abstinence (I'm out).
so I'm fucked.
give up Methadone ? I'm trying.
go straight ? not realistic.
The pressure to be "clean" (implying users are dirty) just shits me. Acknowledge this shit is happening and medicate accordingly and don't make it punitive ffs (I can't get chronic pain meds bc I was an addict so I have to take either suboxne or methadone bc god forbid I get any euphoria from my pain meds)...
I'm sorry you can't access the programme- have you asked if there's the possibility of allowing poly drug use clients to participate? Like, hassle and speak to the more senior people.
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did I ever ! the guy said "if it were up to me then we'd accept you but it's not".
I remember getting off the phone, after showing up in person, breaking down, devastated.
there is simply nowhere for stimulant users to turn to except back to the street - and there's plenty of us in this seemingly hopeless situation.
a Dr. Wodak makes the rules and I approached him too.
no go.
maybe now the Dex won't work for a fair while but I always hope that one day, I'll be able to try it.
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It's because it is a clinical study. They have to control as many variables as possible to get accurate results. Methadone might interfere with the results, and if the results are inaccurate then the study is pretty useless. The time when you could use and have mixed medications would be once it became an accepted treatment.
Moderate doses of stims have a different effect on many adhd patients zoops. My oldest son is prescribed them, and he is hyper and crazy until he takes the vyvanse. The stims have a calming and soothing effect on him.
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Oh yeah, i'm totally aware of stimulants being an effective treatment for AHDH. It's all about the dosage, however. Low to moderate doses are most of the time what is needed. You give an ADHD kid a big dose of amphetamine and he'll be bouncing off the ceiling just like anyone else, though. Then again, a kid who's been on Ritalin his whole life will have developed some degree of tolerance to it, and the dose can increase substantially by then.
That's why doctors recommend "holidays" from the medication so it doesn't lose its effectiveness.
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In methamphetamine "abusers" (can you really "abuse" a street drug if you're using it the way it's intended), which most often smoke or inject it, instead of taking it orally, to get a euphoric rush, do you think oral d-amp would work like methadone does to achieve abstinence from the offending substance? You have been smoking it for a fair while now, haven't you Chipper?
Or would they have to provide some nice, pure, d-amp shard so the tweakers could smoke their hit? Can you imagine the rush from that?
I, however, was always satisfied with taking it orally. 12 hours of feeling like a bazillion bucks, followed by 24 of feeling like absolute shit, wanting to put a gun in my mouth.
Did I already say I like Dexedrine? Gotta have some benzos for that awful, soul-crushing comedown though. Got to.
>drools<