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Author Topic: I shoulda fucking listened...  (Read 23070 times)

Offline Griffin

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Re: I shoulda fucking listened...
« Reply #29 from previous page: July 05, 2016, 12:03:09 PM »
I have a question, if anyone could answer it for me, or if dopeless hopefiend could state your experience when it comes up. It seemed like when I got on bupe I'd start feeling normal around 3-4 days but after a week it became insanely hard to stay on the subs because the cravings, and depression were so bad. I always thought that when I was on subs the day when all of the other opiates were completely out of my system I'd start feeling a lot worse. Does that make sense?

Like say I was taking morphine er before getting on subs, after 3 days on subs I start feeling normal, then somewhere around day 7-10, the mental part of the w/d would come on and become terrible. I believed that since it took 7-10 days for the morphine er to be out of my system completely that it was covering up some of the receptors that the bupe didn't, and when the morphine finally fell off those receptors the bupe didn't cover them and it would make me go through the mental part of the w/d with symptoms like cravings, depression, anxiety, insomnia, and such.

Since you will probably have done in your system for 2-4 weeks if after you start feeling normal your mental w/d gets worse out of nowhere and feels like your in paws let me know. Does anyone have a similar experience or knows what was actually happening. I guess it could be that after time since the bupe wasn't helping my depression and cravings it just continued to get worse and worse until I couldn't take it anymore, and it had nothing to do with the other drug, it's just that it wore me down and snowballed until it was unbearable.
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Re: I shoulda fucking listened...
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2016, 02:53:15 PM »
Yeah, when I get sick, first I get this wringy feeling, starting in my forearms. Like restless arms. Then I get a runny nose that won't quit. Then the yawning and watery eyes, emotional-ness, and constant stretching of my legs. Flexing the muscles in my legs feels good at this stage. Then, onto the nausea and goosebumps and sweating and shaking.

Not good, any of it.
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Re: I shoulda fucking listened...
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2016, 07:47:34 PM »
And how does anyone ever get used to the taste of these things. They're fuckin horrible.
Holy shiiiit you aren't kidding
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Re: I shoulda fucking listened...
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2016, 05:00:35 PM »
A part of me that thinks if I ever do quit done I will just narcan myself to get er done with as quick as possible.  The naloxone should rip all the opiates off your receptors and reduce a long drawn out hell to a short intense kill me hell.


Would this really work? My sub doctor is trying to find a procedure to shorten suboxone withdrawal for when his patients want to finally get off it, as it can be up to 3 weeks long of nearly acute withdrawal.

He recently put a patient on short acting opiates for one month, specifically 7.5/350 hydrocodone. Had her taper down to 15mgs a day, then waited 48 hours from her last hydro pill dose and administered narcan. He administered narcan four times over six hours and yet she still felt like she was in withdrawal the following day...
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Offline nikita70

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Re: I shoulda fucking listened...
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2016, 05:46:41 PM »
Um... I'm not sure if I got whole the tale properly...
I may be totally wrong, but there's something what I can't to conceive/comprehend, I'm afraid.
So please don't feel offended or insulted, I'm just intrigued and would be glad to learn more. I'm not going to try to polemicize or question your personal experience, no way.
You said you were able to go through 5(!!!)days OFF THE 'DONE (I assuming that saying like that you mean cold turkey/being off ANY opioids, right/),
what is completely beyond of my reason and hard to figure to me at all), and after you went through such a drudgery surprisingly brave and successfully,
you were still exposed/vulnerable, so to say, for something, what I guess, made you feel like 100times worse than those 5 days,
you didn't even consider worth of mention??? (is it possible that few occasionally "oxy-episodes" were able to make
such a huge difference, almost thwart your plans, as you were almost ready to... transitioning? induction? (is it how you call it?)

Well, I'm not versed enough either in oxy (never ever had a chance to taste it) nor PWD' terms and the details related-
Where I live we used just to talk like "this and that person is just switching for Bunondol (buprenorphine, Subutex) or Suboxone-and that's it.
As far I remember there were in no one of these tales involved such drammatically, tremendous experience like what you described.
(not that my intention were to question what you have written, as I said before)
There're also not any "scales" or other measurement "tools" known (and even if they are, no one doc uses them for sure)-
considering what you said maybe we are advantaged/lucky in it.
All you have to do is just meet the doc, as you want to switch, and he usually wants you to tell him/her your old worn tale, asks few questions,
then the procedure that has to be carrying gets agreed more (or less) together-they usually let you go outpatient/home,
but they might also instist you to stay in hospital, as they are concerned/bothered something to go wrong or unusual.
Plus, as you let your friends and buddies know what you're going to do, they'll be a little bit envy, but, anyway, warn you and want to make sure that
you'll use your bupe no earlier than at least 24hours after you did your last dose of the 'done.

I'm kinda personally interrested how things look like, since I'm just switching from 25mg of the 'done for buprenorphine.
It's a real bitch, kinda selective w/d what involves "only" some specific aspects of the sickness (restlessness, sense of not any relief to look forward), still bothersome, tiring up and tough enough to want
that you want to put an end to this misery like RIGHT NOW. Anyway, even so painful it's still SURVIVABLE.
This bitchery, for some reasons, seems not to have anything, I mean ANYTHING common
with how fairy easy I was able to deal with shit about 10yrs before.
Then I'd call it basically walking through the park while having some mild panting/breathlessness,
as now it's more like a permanent choke.   
Same shit-different shit.

Sure I realize bupe is one thing (what makes transitioning a drudgery but not mission impossible or lethally)
and Suboxone something completely else, since the damned "agent naloxone" turns your body and mind into one bloodcurdling scream.

May I ask, how your methadone dose was? Was it somehow exceptionally high or so?
Wish you never again had to go through something even close as agonizing as what you went through.
Good luck no matter how your plans and your path is.
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Offline theSWPK

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Re: I shoulda fucking listened...
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2016, 10:24:41 PM »
Yeah, when I get sick, first I get this wringy feeling, starting in my forearms. Like restless arms. Then I get a runny nose that won't quit. Then the yawning and watery eyes, emotional-ness, and constant stretching of my legs. Flexing the muscles in my legs feels good at this stage. Then, onto the nausea and goosebumps and sweating and shaking.

Not good, any of it.

Funny you say that about the restless arms. You and my ex gf are the only 2 people I've ever heard mention it. I've never had any issues with my arms while in WD, just wretched legs.

@smalls naloxone wouldn't work for bupe wd, a mixed agonist, because naloxone is a mu opioid receptor inverse agonist and wouldn't have any effect on the kappa side of buprenorphine. That's why subs have naloxone in them. This is also why naloxone doesn't work for tramadol.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 10:33:38 PM by theSWPK »
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Offline Dopeless Hopefiend (OP)

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Re: I shoulda fucking listened...
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2016, 11:06:09 PM »
Funny you say that about the restless arms. You and my ex gf are the only 2 people I've ever heard mention it. I've never had any issues with my arms while in WD, just wretched legs.

I get the thing with my arms too actually. When I went into the PWD last week my mom was afraid I was going to hit her whole time she was driving me home from the doctor because my arms were flailing around. I've never had it happen so intensely before, but I've always had problems with my arms during w/d.
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Offline Dopeless Hopefiend (OP)

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Re: I shoulda fucking listened...
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2016, 11:41:20 PM »
@nikita70 it was a horrible experience for sure. I was 5 days off methadone, but I was using short acting opis for the first 3 of those days. I had heard horror stories about precipitated withdrawal, so I was trying to be careful not to start the bupe too soon. My doctor was the one who suggested that I take oxy for the first couple of days, so I thought it would be fine. She told me I needed to stop taking oxy 12-24 hours before starting the subs. I waited 36 hours just to be safe. In the end it didn't matter. I don't know why I went into such intense PWD. I was on methadone close to a decade and gained a lot of weight while I was on it. They say 'done stays in your fat cells or something, so maybe that's why it took so long to get out of my system. I thought I did everything right as far as my taper, I mean I was as high as 155mg a day years ago, but got down to 85 and stayed there the last 5 years or so. Then I took at least a year to taper down to 30mg before I jumped. 
It sounds like getting on subs is a lot simpler where you are. That doesn't surprise me. The US is pretty far behind most of Europe, Canada, etc when it comes to health-care and drug treatment (among other things). Here most doctors use something called the COWS Scale for sub inductions, and give you scores based on different symptoms you have. I didn't feel like I was nearly sick enough, but my doctor really pushed me to start the suboxone anyway, and induced me at way too high a dose from what I can gather now. I had taken a total of 12mg by the time I left her office. (4 every 30 minutes or so). It truly was the worst w/d experience I've ever had.
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Re: I shoulda fucking listened...
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2016, 06:04:10 AM »
Would this really work? My sub doctor is trying to find a procedure to shorten suboxone withdrawal for when his patients want to finally get off it, as it can be up to 3 weeks long of nearly acute withdrawal.

He recently put a patient on short acting opiates for one month, specifically 7.5/350 hydrocodone. Had her taper down to 15mgs a day, then waited 48 hours from her last hydro pill dose and administered narcan. He administered narcan four times over six hours and yet she still felt like she was in withdrawal the following day...

Not sure honestly.  If you did it you would have to continue with naloxone until the drug is eliminated from your system.  Narcan doesn't eliminate the opiates.  It takes their place on the receptors, but the opiates are still floating there being broken down at a normal rate.  When the narcan wears off the opiates hop back in, and you are back where you were as if you never took narcan.

This comes up in overdoses with long acting opiates.  Sometimes you will fall out again when the narcan wears off and the receptors open up for business again.

I don't know what it would do but there certainly is precedent and studies about using naloxone for withdrawing.
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Offline Chip

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Re: I shoulda fucking listened...
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2016, 06:28:36 AM »
Would this really work? My sub doctor is trying to find a procedure to shorten suboxone withdrawal for when his patients want to finally get off it, as it can be up to 3 weeks long of nearly acute withdrawal.

He recently put a patient on short acting opiates for one month, specifically 7.5/350 hydrocodone. Had her taper down to 15mgs a day, then waited 48 hours from her last hydro pill dose and administered narcan. He administered narcan four times over six hours and yet she still felt like she was in withdrawal the following day...

I say that you should just taper gently - sure, it goes on forever but it's relatively painless.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 06:30:41 AM by chipper »
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Offline nikita70

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Re: I shoulda fucking listened...
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2016, 06:25:10 PM »
@nikita70 It sounds like getting on subs is a lot simpler where you are. That doesn't surprise me. The US is pretty far behind most of Europe, Canada, etc when it comes to health-care and drug treatment (among other things). Here most doctors use something called the COWS Scale for sub inductions, and give you scores based on different symptoms you have. I didn't feel like I was nearly sick enough, but my doctor really pushed me to start the suboxone anyway, and induced me at way too high a dose from what I can gather now. I had taken a total of 12mg by the time I left her office. (4 every 30 minutes or so). It truly was the worst w/d experience I've ever had.

@Dopeless Hopefiend
Thanks a lot for you shed some light to this story...
Unfortunately, you're completely wrong as it comes to the "health-care' customs', so to say, where I'm living,
and believe me, Honey (Badger);), I wish you were at least in half part right in what you said.
But please keep in mind-one Europe-different shit.
UK for instance is Harm Reduction' "cradle", and in spite of what nick says (hello nick!) and no matter how much is @nick ;) complaining, sticks to its glorious tradition, what turns England into kinda Junkies Paradise, at least relatively,
comparing to the "zero tolerance" or hardly/seemingly tolerant' attitude that few other countries keens on. 
Whilst I'm in Poland, I mean Po-land or Poo-land, one of the most retarded, narcophobic, superstitoius, hatefull and prejudiced country within Europe.

I think Poles takes a lot after Americans in matter of, let's say, law, drug policy and so,
thus I can easily figure out some narcophobic jailhouse jerkoff doc speaking with a deep South accent (no offence, Dixielanders),
slapping palm/five (or how you call it) with this Polish fucker, who has cancel my takehomes after years of being clean playing fair
and tried to blackmail me, threating to get me out of MMT, without any taper and letting me high and dry (what is absolutely against the law, not even mention such things like compassion etc.)
as he revealed I'm on benzos constantly, using them not like "recreational" or so, but out of an urgent need.
This is what has brought me to the idea of switching, instead of ending up as a lifer dragging her ass to the clinic day by day, without any break or chance to leave or holiday, until "things getting change".       
Hell, I don't mind to be a methadone lifer, I'd even enjoy it, regarding there would be limitless takehomes involved.
 
It really hurts to blame one's own Homeland, but truly, this country is going torment me to death, I can feel in my guts that drug-emigration is the only solution,
but for some reasons I'm too much cowardly or maybe just too old, stiffling and spoiled to take a risk. 
I'm 45 yrs,
been more than half of my life on opies, benzos, everything, and now, as I finally was able to catch a breathe,
some stupid, ignorant and/or fanatical guy makes my relatively comfy life totally mess. Totally. Fucking once again.

Guess what? When they opened a methadone clinic in my city I was about done, permanent hassles, that crazy "seesaw" of getting high vs crawling sick alternately, fucked me up completely so I was driving on fumes, so to say,
thus I thought maybe I'll save my ass, as the dream about methadone finally came true and the thick liquid started to soak into where the permanent draught were before. 
I needed to pass the joint I once kicked as I've been driving to the clinic, and every time I stared at the grim looking building,
I was able to feel some sense of delight and safety overwhelming me,
like "thankfully, this nightmare is already behind me, I'm falling out of the fucking street game so there's no reason shit like this would affect me anymore. At last I don't need to bother it come back, I never ever have to go through this horror again",
plus, I used kinda silent "prayed" or just mentioned or "evoked" those desperated, hapless dopesick individuals inside, behind the bars, cutting off of literally anything.
I wanted them being able to get some relief and kinda sent good vibes (regarding I have any, lol).

As I said, I'm not familiar enough with transitioning terms, there's just a single case I'm able to recall. Suboxone isn't common and/or appreciated here, so it's rather an exception when someone decides to switch for it.
So, my friend got adviced to go to the hospital ward to make the induction.
I truly doubt if they'd provide him with some proper time interval between the last one shot/sip of the 'done
and the bupe' initiation, a "break" long enough to make the switch comfortable, I'd bet it last no longer than at most 24hours before he got his first Suboxone.
They just don't give a fuck.
I have seen this guy like 4-5day later, right after he got discharged from the ward. He seemed to be in surprisingly good condition,
considering all the horror stories I have my head stuffed with. He looked to be just a little bit disconcentrated, unsteady and over-emotional, kinda surrended by some disturbing "aura of an early abstinence",
what is an "obligatory", regular post-detox syndrome that everyone "involved" is able to notice at the first sight, with a naked eye.
It's also what he has reported as people harrased him to tell them "how the transitioning feels like? Is it at least survivable?".
As if there were blind. Doubting Thomases, lol. Wanted they to touch this guy's receptors and make sure they're empty or at least ran out of methadone molecules? Or sink their fingers into his shit?

@Zoops
Another one wall scratcher here. I used to kinda twist with my wrists and forearms as if I'd be performing Indian mudras, or so. People considered me to be Godness and called Cali. Kidding, of course.   
   
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Offline Dopeless Hopefiend (OP)

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Re: I shoulda fucking listened...
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2016, 09:47:35 PM »
You're absolutely right @nikita70 I did just assume that all (or at least most) of Europe was in line with the UK, Netherlands, etc. where medical/health & addiction services are concerned. I guess Poland is more in line with the good ol' USA though huh? That sucks for both of us.  ;)
I totally know what you mean about the relief that MMT brings in just not having to be a part of that street game anymore. Methadone was great for me for a long time. I think as I'm getting older (40)its just harder for my body to fight the side effects like gaining weight & always sweating. Plus, my clinic had become much more punitive over the last couple of years. Taking people's take-home status away for very minor infractions, putting people on administrative detox (meaning 21 days & off, no matter how high your dose was). I suppose I just wanted to try something different, so suboxone seemed easier than tapering down to zero.
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