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Core Topics => Drugs => Alcohol & Tobacco => Topic started by: Chip on January 20, 2017, 02:13:29 AM

Title: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: Chip on January 20, 2017, 02:13:29 AM
I have been drinking 2 or 3 bottles of wine during the week, with a little Phenibut (bad idea, same receptor real estate) and it got me wondering and feeling like it's not such a good idea, but anyway ...

in terms of "standard drinks" (a bottle of wine may contain around an average of 7 standard drinks), how many and for how long does it take for the most minor of withdrawal symptoms to present - with just alcohol alone ?

i guess that's sweating, anxiety and tremor ? correct me if i am wrong.

i'm just curious so if anybody has experienced discomfort from their drinking, i'm interested in hearing about it and how you got there, in terms of amounts and duration ... from my experience, alcohol is quite short acting so maybe that's a blessing ...
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: MoeMentim on January 20, 2017, 05:28:30 AM
I suspect most people would need to drink real hard and steady, I drink at least 9 standard drinks a night (strong beer & a little whiskey) and I don't get withdrawls.  Picking up a script for anabuse tomorrow.  Scary, not sure what I'll do with myself.  I've got like nothing at all in my life right now and no motivation to change that.  Maybe a week or two sober I'll start to come around a bit but I'm not holding my breath.
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: Chip on January 20, 2017, 07:24:42 AM
When you say "steady" do you mean daily for months on end ?

The gazetted safe amount of drinks is 4 in one day, I am told.

If I drink 7 standard drinks every 2 days with a day break I should be right ? What do you think ?
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: MoeMentim on January 21, 2017, 12:55:56 AM
I doubt it would take months but I think you'd basically need to drink more or less all day long for a while, how long I'm not sure. 
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: Roman Totale on January 21, 2017, 03:58:29 AM
When you say "steady" do you mean daily for months on end ?

The gazetted safe amount of drinks is 4 in one day, I am told.

If I drink 7 standard drinks every 2 days with a day break I should be right ? What do you think ?

I think you're entirely in the clear.  IIRC, Aussies define a standard drink as even more ridiculously small than the Brits do.  I'd guess somewhere north of a pint (375ml) of liquor -- 9 American standard drinks -- a day, for at least a couple of weeks, would be necessary for physical withdrawals.  I'd say a six-pack or a bottle of wine a night (6 American drinks each) is probably borderline, but I've seen people do that for a long time consistently and then stop without alcohol w/d.  Of course, cravings are a whole different story.  And the fact that alcohol can be damaging (bodily, but also in terms of provoking depression, etc) at sub-w/d drinking levels.

Honestly, as bad as booze is as a general matter, the phenibut is probably the more dangerous substance from the perspective of withdrawals, given all the stories of rapidly escalating tolerance and dependence.
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: theSWPK on January 21, 2017, 04:28:25 AM
Like with many other substances, weight is going to factor in, the only question being how much so. I'm curious about potential cross tolerance from other GABAergic drugs like ghb, benzodiazepines, neurontin. I don't have any recent exp with alcohol, only had 3 or 4 drinking experiences in the past 5 years.
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: Chip on January 21, 2017, 05:37:16 AM
RT, I am also far more concerned about Phenibut, too.

Alcohol is just something I am flirting with for now.

Nick firmly advised against it and I understand but I never been a drinker in my life and it's not that appealing to me. In fact, it's a cheap option of last resort and not something I really enjoy.
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: bonedust on January 21, 2017, 05:59:30 AM
^^^A cheap option and something you really don't enjoy? I remember thinking stuff like that back when I was 17-23 years old. I hated booze but I was still a drunk almost all the time.
I don't really get involved in people's stuff, but I just wanted to mention that to you Chipper cuz I give a shit about you. Just try to tread carefully. :)
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: Chip on January 21, 2017, 06:15:11 AM
Thank you. Noted.
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: Z on January 22, 2017, 01:37:28 AM
Be careful Chipper.  The times in my life that I've been totally clean have ended with me drinking too.  For me personally I would rather be on methadone.  Alcohol can be pretty destructive stuff if you aren't careful with it.


In my experience it takes a long time of steady drinking to get true withdrawal sypmtoms from drinking.  You almost have to work at it to get to that point.  I drink all day every day for about a year before I ended up with mild DT from not drinking.  A family member was in the hospital recently, and we were worried that he would need alcohol to stop him from having complications.  He was the kind of guy that drink a bottle of wine every night for years.  The doctors supervised him and he was fine.  They were totally open to prescribing wine with his dinner if it was necessary as well.


I think wine affects you differently then beer or hard liquor.  This is just my observation mind you.  I don't think that alcohol is alcohol is alcohol.  Maybe the natural fermentation imparts some different characteristics to it, or it's something ancillary that causes the effect.  Maybe I'm crazy.  Who knows.


For me personally, I don't do sober very well.  I need that pressure valve or my dissatisfaction with the world and how I fit into it comes out pretty heavily.  If you ever need to talk I'm always around.
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: MoeMentim on January 22, 2017, 02:03:33 AM
  I wish I could get on methadone instead of drinking, it's fucking awful.  I'm not willing to get another dope habit though.  Wish to God there were other flavors of opiate maintenance for people with treatment resistant depression/anxiety.  It's like I'm now mentally stuck in paws, seemingly forever. 
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: bonedust on January 22, 2017, 03:38:10 AM
^^^Hey Z, I got DTs from wine. My husband and I were box wine nuts. Had that shit chilling on the windowsill in the winter. But yea merlot all the damn time. I would be angry and not be able to talk to people unless I had booze in me then I would start to shake.  It was bizarre. But you're right, it does take dedication. I drank hardcore for years. It got to the point where I was mixing pills at the end. I drank to black-out. A lot of alcohol poisoning too. I thankfully stopped at age 23 and hit the opiates
 I honestly would not have made it to age 30 if we continued.
Nowadays I physically can't even handle a whole beer without feeling terrible. I did something weird to my body. I heard other opiate folks who used to drink are like that too.

And Moementim, I wish something would work the hell out for ya. I'm bummed that you're bummed. It really sucks that we really have no great options. I fucking hate subs, even more than I complain about methadone. I'm pretty much on dope maintenance. I don't get extras too often so that's how it worked out. My husband does the clinic thing, but I would rather be in charge of my fuckup than clinic management.
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: Z on January 22, 2017, 04:16:09 AM
I knew a girl back when that was all about the box wine.  Shed carry the space age bag around and drink traight from the nozzle.


For sure you can get addicted from wine.  I just meant that there are some subtle differences between types of alcohol. 


I'm glad you're doing better now.  I lost my taste for most booze too.  I do enjoy the rare black beer 3 or 4 times a year when the stars align, but otherwise I'm like you.  No taste for it anymore.
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: traplord69 on January 22, 2017, 05:09:09 PM
I definitely use alcohol as a substitute for my true love which is obviously opiates.  I really can't stand how it makes you feel the next day though, hang over etc, which everyone can relate to of course.  Idk if its because of my previous experience with other drugs or just being an addict but I can drink a pretty large amount of booze, whiskey is my go to and I need about a half a fifth to get a decent buzz and could polish off an entire fifth if I wanted to get really fucked up.  With getting back on subs and trying to steer clear of any other opiates I feel like its pretty much my only option to have a release as Z said, without the stigma, huge cost, possible legal ramifications etc etc related to the more fun and honestly way less physically destructive drugs like heroin. Sooo unfair lol

Also I've never really sustained a drinking habit long enough to comment on the topic of the thread.  Usually drink rather heavily on a weekend/during the holiday season but never continuously for more than maybe a week at a time
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: nurse_K on January 24, 2017, 01:47:42 PM
My experience is there are a lot of factors to take in consideration. Age. Competitive illnesses amongst others. Tolerance is a slippery slide. Also withdrawl symptoms can be seen ( and felt by the patient) although alcohol is still detectable in the body. Something heath staff not always are aware of and address accordingly. Unfortunatly.

One thing that is not mentioned here is the importance of daily intake of vitamin B´s  ( b complex)when regular and high intake of alcohol.
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: MoeMentim on January 25, 2017, 03:05:28 AM
  Woke up shakey with THE FEAR.  Drinking already (11:45 am).  Goddamn do I hate this shit.  I picked up my script for anabuse a couple days ago but I've not taken any yet.  Not sure if I will, I read that it can take up to 2 weeks after stopping anabuse before one can drink safely & I'm terrified about that prospect.  Seems like a recipe back to a dope habit.  As bad as my drinking presently is I'm not doing heroin & haven't since a couple chips last winter.  Part of that equation is just the fact that I refuse to drive even after one beer.  I'm scared about not having booze at my disposal, I do think that at times it's kept me from copping.  At this point I'm not sure if a heroin habit is worse or better, at least I'd get happy from time to time instead of just drinking to obliterate the fear...

  I wish, if nothing else, that I could regulate my intake.  Two shots of whiskey & I feel better presently but know I'm going to drink the six pack of 9% beer I picked up at the least.  Once I finish that I give myself a 50/50 chance of not walking to the liquor store for more.  Next time I see my psych I'm going to ask for a benzo script but doubt he'll be game due to my addiction history.  If I could quit drinking I bet my depression/anxiety would be cut in half & I'd be able to do the stuff that seems impossible to me right now. 

  I've been tying off to look at my veins several times a day, just unsure if a chip or two would get it out of my system like last winter or if I'd end up jumping back into it.  Fuck me and this life.  I swear alcohol is the worst drug ever.  Please tread carefully Chipper, k?
 
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: George on January 27, 2017, 06:09:36 PM
i guess that's sweating, anxiety and tremor ?

That's just the natural course of human existence in the modern world, hahahaha.

I wish I could recall the good source I found when I was searching the same question, but I am not going to try as I am too intoxicated. But that source was great. Medical Doctorates and graphs, oh what a source!

If you're concerned I'd just take 48 hours with no alcohol. I'm sure you know hangover and withdrawal are the same thing.

I am well versed in the art of alcoholism, but my methods differ from most: sometimes I can be found in my native habitat pulling the covers over my head to shield myself from non-existent light, writhing in a pool of sweat, panicking about the nonsense I have posted on the d&U forum.








Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: Chip on January 27, 2017, 06:43:40 PM
I have a double GABAb issue as I also use Phenibut.

Time out is a good idea.
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: nurse_K on January 28, 2017, 03:18:15 AM
i guess that's sweating, anxiety and tremor ?

If you're concerned I'd just take 48 hours with no alcohol. I'm sure you know hangover and withdrawal are the same thing.

If there is a medical history of seizures I would not suggest just quiting alcohol. That can be dangerous. Kindling effect.
this has to be medically supervised .( or at least where I come from)

I have has issues with alcohol clinics of my knowledge, as they oftes seem very resolute its either no drink or your not welcome. Quite interesting if it is compared to heroin clinics where harm reduction is practiced.
why not harm reduction in alcohol clinics?
Although I completely understand from a medical point of view that alcohol is bad for your, if  the alternative is no treatment - why not practise harm reduction in alcohol treatment?
There is a very interesting article;
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/05/world/europe/amsterdam-has-a-deal-for-alcoholics-work-paid-in-beer.html
they did similar in a park where a social worker  was available, and could help the people with various matters. Interestingly the alcohol intake dropped and various health matters where attended and most importantly  the " people of the park" experienced better quality of life.
Sometimes I think it is more important to  initially address some of the other problems. If they are solved the alcohol intake will reduce accordingly.
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: traplord69 on January 28, 2017, 10:34:43 AM
I have heard that in some hospital detox settings that they will actually treat alcoholics with small amounts of alcohol for the initial withdrawal along with benzo's, lithium etc.  Like they will literally give you a shot or two of alcohol with breakfast lunch and dinner.  I was surprised  :))
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: nurse_K on January 28, 2017, 04:04:20 PM
Review of reduced risk drinking as viable treatment goal.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0269881113495320

snip from the conclusion:
"This review also shows that RRD as a treatment goal is feasible and probably just as effective as abstinence-oriented approaches at reducing alcohol dependence and alcohol-related harm, at least for a subgroup of people with alcohol abuse or dependence. Moreover, the patient’s choice to select RRD as the preferred treatment goal seems to be an important determinant for a successful outcome. Most of these findings have also found their way into national and professional guidelines and in the policy of important agencies such as the NIAAA and EMA. Unfortunately, relatively little is known about the long-term effects (> 2 years) of RRD interventions, and more studies are needed.
 
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: MoeMentim on January 29, 2017, 04:54:18 AM
day two no alcohol.  Went to an aa meeting to & will probably go to another tonight.  I've been sober/clean via aa before so i know the ropes.  I doubt I'll jump in with both feet, get a sponsor etc... but I think it'll be good for me to go to meetings.  presently my social life is non-existent besides my sisters family and my dog.  Oh, and you guys, how could I forget that.  Anyhow feeling pretty good about my resolution right now.  Sure that'll change a bunch of times until I'm solid but I think I'll be able to get through those times now, so fucking sick of alcohol.
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: Opi-ette on January 30, 2017, 12:31:06 AM
I'm pulling for you MoeMentim. I'm glad you aren't putting so much pressure on yourself and you realize that there are ups and downs. I think sometimes saying "no way never ever again" can do more damage than good. And perhaps making a friend or two at the meetings will be good for you.

Please keep us posted :)
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: Z on January 30, 2017, 02:29:23 AM
Hang in there man.  I'm cheering for you too.


I definitely agree about being gentle with yourself.  You can't change a lifetime worth of habit overnight.  As long as overall you are getting where you want to be then I think you are succeeding.
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: MoeMentim on January 30, 2017, 03:49:54 AM
thank you both, that's advice i'll try to take.  i do tend to be very hard on myself, especially when i "mess up."  i think that's common for a lot of us.
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: MoeMentim on January 30, 2017, 11:10:56 AM
haven't been sleeping well (like at all) since giving up the hooch.  so today i'm taking a cocktail (pun intended) of otc stuff for sleep.  a couple bowls of purple urkl, melatonin, some other sleep aid, and soon some nighttime tea.  I am certainly relaxed if not tired yet.  I also take 10mg olanzapine every night which helps sleep.

but - i also got a couple boxes of candy & a 12 pack of 7up to replace the beer & whiskey.  i am sensitive to whatever chemical crap is in that stuff & it usually keeps me up so we'll see what happens. ill sleep eventually.  my record for no sleep was 11 days, a cold turkey kick from an h habit.  was at a treatment place of sorts.
Title: Re: How and when does an alcohol habit/withdrawal present ?
Post by: bignasty on January 30, 2017, 10:59:09 PM
I have heard that in some hospital detox settings that they will actually treat alcoholics with small amounts of alcohol for the initial withdrawal along with benzo's, lithium etc.  Like they will literally give you a shot or two of alcohol with breakfast lunch and dinner.  I was surprised  :))
my pops drinks about 6-9 beers a night except on Sundays (with no problems) and was hospitalized for heart problems a few years back. He had a bad reaction to all the medicine they were giving him and the doctors blamed it on DT's. They asked us what he usually drank and started bringing him a 16 oz Miller Lite with his supper every night. But he refused to drink it because he didn't think his problems were from alcohol withdrawal but a bad reaction to some of the medications they were giving him. thought it was crazy for a hospital to get someone to go to the convenient store nearby to get a beer every night for my dad.
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