dopetalk
General => General Discussion for Everybody => Topic started by: Illadelph215 on July 19, 2016, 09:08:07 AM
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Sup y'all, it's been a while. Being that suboxone and such is relatively new and we are still test bunnies, is there anyone here who has been on it for the long haul. I know people who have been on it on/off for 4-5 years and such which is basically the same as me, except I've been on it non-stop for a good while now.
Searching this subject is hit or miss elsewhere plus I obviously trust this community the most and would appreciate anyone's input. Whether it's something you have noticed personally, something you've heard, seen, or even if your not sure if bupe is the cause or if it's all in your head. I'd love to hear your stories. I know everyone's different.
I would love to blame the more and more white hair I get daily, the more hair in general I have, redness of skin, on it but I'm sure that's just because I'm approaching my 30's and in denial. Plus I obviously was a heroin user before this so I'm sure that's to blame for a lot as well.
I do know* that it causes/caused my mood swings/difficult time gaining weight/fatigue/fucked sleep cycles.
All in all though it has been a wonder drug (for me) and whatever side effects I get or blame it on are worth it to me, at least for now.
*I'm not a doctor.
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I've used low dose subutex for about 5 years. Less than 1mg/day, probably closer to.6 or .7....Prescribed 2mg tablets and I try to break them in thirds. It works as an antidepressant for me, and if I increase a little, a good painkiller. I've tapered and quit, and have lost sleep, but all in all, I like the state of mind of low dose. Its working and and I don't have any plans of stopping, or any good reason to stop.
I wish it wasn't stigmatized, and was used for depression more (even off label) I doubt anyone would fund the trials necessary to market it as anything other that current use, i.e. addiction, but I don't need it for addiction. I have no desire to use opiates for any duration anymore, and have powerful opiates available usually, as I am a chronic kidney stone producer and am prescribed dilaudid fairly regularly when a stone is passing.
I think its a very valuable drug. Underused and underappreciated, definitely stigmatized.
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I've been on 8 mg per day for a few years. Got a cool doctor, no drug tests. Before that i went back and forth between using and subs. I'm fatter now, and very constipated, but other than that it's a wonder drug and gave me my life back. YMMV
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Less (under 2-4 mg/day) is definitely better than more. More just makes everything more difficult: cost, blocking, dependence on buprenorphine itself, weight gain, and the probable cause of that; supression of natural testosterone production.
If I had know that long-term or increased use was going to do that I would have quit a long time ago. When I got back from Colombia I told my doctor I wanted to quit and imediately started to reduce use. It has been less than 2 weeks and I've gone down from about 12mg/day to 8 and will continue to reduce as fast as my body can take it.
On the plus side, using bupe since 2003 has allowed me to get out of the everyday dope world and the constant opportunities to use. Because of that I was able to refocus my energies and get on with my life. For that I am happy. Much of that is because taking it daily eliminated the ability to use spontaneously and that was the big thing that helped me break the cycle.
I might have kept on using it for the rest of my life if I didn't come to learn that everything that is wrong with my life NOW probably stems from suppressed testosterone levels. Once I started taking gels and shots everything; weight gain, low libido, low ambition, disinterest in life, it all changed and now I feel like I turned the clock back 20 years or more.
Now I would caution against indefinite maintenance.
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I was on bupe for a solid 4 years. They started me pretty high I think at around 16mg but before long I was down to 12mg and I found that I didn't really need much more than around 4mg. For the past 2 years or so I was on 2mg or less, and more recently at .25-.5mg. I honestly never noticed any side effects from it, idk if thats because I was never on a high sustained dose or if its just my body. But I never gained weight, had headaches, the sweats (that might be methadone cant remember) or anything else really. I do sort of feel like I might have low testosterone though. Have a high libido, no hair loss or anything but I feel like I dont have nearly as much energy as I should.
I had a hell of time trying to get off it though, got down to 1/8th mg and still couldn't hop off it, maybe I'm just a pussy. So I got on the lope train which luckily hasnt gotten out of control. Started at 16-20mg and am down to 2-6mg, can usually get by fine on like 2mg actually. But I've been chipping lately and every time I get to the point where I'm about to hop off I end up getting high which then sort of starts it all over again. Take 10-12mg when the dope runs out and then get back down to 2-4mg
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I would love to get off completely but I'm terrified of withdrawing. I've heard it's monstrous. Lasts forever and ever. Eventually my doctor will kick the bucket, he's got to be 90 years old, and then I guess I'll see what happens.
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I had done the on and off thing for like 4 years, ten got strictly on subs for 2. During those 2 years, i would iv maybe 1mg in the morning and 1mg in the evening, if not even a bit less per day. Well i relapsed for a few days, which turned into a couple weeks till my first real try to get back on subs. Its almost like they completely stopped working for me. I feel Worse when i take any and feel like shit for the first few days at least.
It never used to do that to me, I'm like completely bedridden to where i keep using to just feel ok. Idk what changed but after a long period of just sub, i just haven't been able to get back on em for like 6 months now
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@Dog Food, I think a lot of bupe users have had that experience. I had no prob switching it up for a couple days or a week during the first year I was on subs. Then, at some point, it was like a switch got flipped, and instead of an easy transition, it was like 60-70% of a full kick to get back on subs. 3 days of sweating, shivering, etc before I would feel ok again. At first, like I said, it was never like that. I've heard the same story from a lot of long term users of subs. I'm not sure why it's like that, but it's pretty common. It just seems to stop working at some point and you'd almost be better off just following through with a cold turkey. I know I'd just keep taking the subs in disbelief, wondering why I felt so shitty. Then, at about the 4th day, things would "normalize" and I'd feel ok again. I haven't been able to get transitioned back to subs in years now. It seems like even at 24-30 hours, 4-6 mgs does nothing to cover the pain. I wish I would have known that, all those years ago. I'd like to think I would have made slightly better choices, knowing that it had a window of usefulness. Too much switching back and forth just seems to destroy bupe's effectiveness, unfortunately.
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You know, that's interesting. I used recently, first time in a while. I've been feeling kinda off ever since and I noticed my normal sub dose didn't hold me. Fortunately I was able to just flood the gates with bupe until I did feel mostly ok, but I think I better try real hard not to fuck up any more or I might find myself in a real tough spot. Thanks for the heads up because I'm sure I'd keep doing it wondering WTF.
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You know, that's interesting. I used recently, first time in a while. I've been feeling kinda off ever since and I noticed my normal sub dose didn't hold me. Fortunately I was able to just flood the gates with bupe until I did feel mostly ok, but I think I better try real hard not to fuck up any more or I might find myself in a real tough spot. Thanks for the heads up because I'm sure I'd keep doing it wondering WTF.
For me, it just got worse and worse. I noticed that the little one or two day vacations were harder to recover from. Back ache and runny nose, which I never got at first. Once that started, the next time I stopped taking subs for a couple weeks it was just inexplicably rough to get back on them. Whereas all the previous times, maybe I felt a little off for a day or two, this was like a 3 day kick that was almost as bad as a normal cold turkey. Not quite as bad, but not any kind of able to function at work, sleep well/not wake up drenched in sweat... That kind of fun.
If you can use it as motivation or a little "warning to self" not to use, by all means, do (if that's what you want). In my experience (and I've heard a lot of similar stories), it will continue to get more difficult to transition. That is one of my biggest complaints about subs. That and the need to be 24-30hrs away from any use just make it difficult and less "practical." I wish I could get transitioned to it now, actually. Been struggling for weeks. Good luck with the battle!
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Nikita has been saying how hard it's been for her to transition to bupe and I was shocked at how bad she's had it, but there but for the grace of god go I. I'm really glad i saw this. Now the trick is to actually do what I know is good for me rather than just fuck up thinking oh, it'll be FOINe. Spoiler alert, no it won't.
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Maybe the problems people have after long term use then "taking a vacation" then re-starting the subs is that our endorphine receptors have "atrophied" over the years and it take longer to build up enough bupe to compensate.
That's only a guess. My doctor says there should be no damages to our endorphine systems , that they will recover after withdrawl and post-accute withdrawal but maybe docotrs just don't know yet because high-dose buprenorphine mainenance is new and largely unique to the USA.
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Idk,. I dont even get high like i used to anymore since taking sub for years. Like within a week i was shooting a gram or 2 of good dope after nothing but sub for 2 years. Its like the sub burns out your receptors almost. I mean ill get a rush, but then like a min later all i feel is normal. To the point where ive done several big shots almost back to back to try and nod. I never get that nod much anymore, its just do dope, feel normal, till i fall asleep, wake up feeling sick again... I miss the times of sitting there nodding out but still conscious and really feeling good. Idk
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Guys, welcome to getting older.
I wouldn't blame the Bupe but rather your own tolerance ... it could easily be the same complaint with Methadone or dope.
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I concur that when I did get high it was extremely underwhelming. So much so that I was thinking, why in earth did I get so strung out? Before I would literally salivate thinking about a good iv rush. I miss that but I'm sure it's for the best in the long run. My life is objectively much better now, and all I had to sacrifice was the one thing I really love doing!
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Now that you guys mention it I do remember that happening with switching between subs and dope as well. Just a guess but I think the higher the dose of subs that you're on the harder it becomes to go back and forth. When I was chipping I was on between .25 and .5mg of sub and the dope would break right through that no problem. But when the dope ran out the same dose of sub would never cover me, I'd have to bump it up to double or triple my usual sub dose and still would feel a bit off for atleast a day or two. Then it would usually be a little uncomfortable tapering back down to my normal dose of .25mg but not all that bad. It could just be me but with the low dose of suboxone that I was on it never got much worse than that. I did the same routine for about a year and half but it might have gotten worse eventually.
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Yeah, im talking about years of solely bupe use. I only used maybe 2mg most per day in two 1mg iv doses. So id assume its similar to a 4
5-6mg sublingual per day habit. Maybe 8mg per day at most. I cant even think about how fucked those people on 32mg or more per day will be to try and get high if thats the cause of diminished euphoria from opiates. Ive read studies on that subject years ago when i was just getting on subs the first time around 2011 too i remember.
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@LoneRanger7 Dope and weed are more enjoyable once you've gotten into them a little bit... every time I am looking forward or anticipating dope, it's underwhelming and anticlimactic. It's when you're into it daily that you get the good highs... for some reason.
@DeadCat Just curious but, do you want to get off the bupe so your test production will be natural? There's a good chance that, since you've started test replacement, your body won't produce testosterone at normal levels anymore... mine won't :/
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@LoneRanger7 Dope and weed are more enjoyable once you've gotten into them a little bit... every time I am looking forward or anticipating dope, it's underwhelming and anticlimactic. It's when you're into it daily that you get the good highs... for some reason.
@DeadCat Just curious but, do you want to get off the bupe so your test production will be natural? There's a good chance that, since you've started test replacement, your body won't produce testosterone at normal levels anymore... mine won't :/
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That's kind of an unknow for both my endorcrinologist and me. If my bodies failure to produce satisfactory levels of natural testosterone (known as the very ugly word: "Hypogonadism") is being caused by the Buprenorphine and not just a coincidental medical condition ( due to age of soemthing else)) then it isn't unreasonable to think that once the buprenorphine is removed, my body will respond by returning back to normal. I don't know that the long term suppression actually kills the body's ability to rebound and get back t normal. That wouldn't be unlike endorphine production: people who quit taking exogenous endorphin s like smack and methadone don't seem to be crippled for life and unable to have a normalsense of well-being after they do quit, at least after several months.
Either way, if taking a weekly shot or daily gels, or both means I have mosterous morning wood again, anda sex drive, ability to build muscle mass and better metnal cognition, and more natural male swagger, fuck it, sign e up I want to be a stud again. I think the women I date will agree, as long as I dont become acliche's "roid head withfits of rage and a literal fat headand mico balls, but that is only when you are juicing for maximum effect.
A I have said befor the erosion of my natural male -ness was gradual and i didn't really notice it occurring while it was. No in a good way , I am ready to fuck or fight and it hasn't made me a asshole jock. In fact the increase mental awareness has helped me be more appreciative of others and to think les about myslef and more about others in responsive and caring way as opposed to the focus on yslef and how iseerable i was before I had sufficient T.
T has abd rap and it IS an essential steroid for both en and when, not just Jockes who over stack and ive for breaking athletic records.
In fact, If my doctor is happy keeping ,e at allow level through the gels I'll stat adding shot secretleyso I can get more out of life, but I'm a drug user who self-medicaes because I am not convinced doctors always do the right thing.
I like waking up with a mnster erection demanding attention and so do the woen I date. But, I will trade a few years of quality life for a fw years of being alive any time I can make that trade.
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So if you were just on bupe, definitely, you would/should rebound. It's the testosterone replacement that seems to kill it. A lot of body builders end up on testosterone replacement. Because you're shutting down your bodies natural production pretty much completely, it has a hard time starting up again and getting back to normal levels. There are drugs like clomid that some have had success restarting it with but, to my understanding, it usually stops working when you stop taking it. Just saying that, even if you get off the bupe, you might still need the test... not sure if that changes anything for you but yeah...
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Pleasant surprise to see this thread being talked about today and to see a lot of positive stuff about subs on it. As I said I've only been on it for a bit but overall the positive far outweigh any negative and I have "my life" back.
I've read horror stories in other places of people blaming subs for bone loss, tooth decay, and other shit but with no studies to support it and the obvious that users usually don't take care of their teeth to begin with, I chalked it up to not being suboxones fault. There was numerous posts claiming the above online though so it had me a little shook at first.
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Nikita has been saying how hard it's been for her to transition to bupe and I was shocked at how bad she's had it, but there but for the grace of god go I. I'm really glad i saw this. Now the trick is to actually do what I know is good for me rather than just fuck up thinking oh, it'll be FOINe. Spoiler alert, no it won't.
@LoneRanger7 , @Catsfordrugs ,
yeah, nikita has had really hard times and it continues, one way or another. IMO, the main "physical" disadvantage is bupe seems to interfere the circadian rhythm, causes seriously sleep disorder, even as you seem to be already relatively stable on it, I mean when you're so far in it, that for the other symptoms it fixes you... tolerably well.
I think since it's partially agonists and affects Kappa receptor instead of Mu receptor (I'm pretty much ignorant in it, so please correct me if have confused things and wrong),
there's no way to "squeeze it out so to get something more than just this 'tolarable'"... The word like "delightful" seems to be beyond one's range as on the bupe, so to say. We need to settle for this fucking "tolarable", I guess.
By the other hand, nikita has some seriously personal issues involved,
and bupe doesn't prevent person from anything else but just an acute, full blown w/d, no matter how far/long you're on it. That's what I think.
And yes, @Dog Food , it kinda ruins your high, indeed. Maybe it's too fresh to conclude, but after I "left for vacation" before yesterday, I felt some very short-lived relief, like "I'm home again" what has been following by some pretty intensive panic attack. It wasn't pleasant at all.
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Ugh, that sounds awful, Nikita. I agree that personal issues can come into play. But when I started, I also felt that tolerable was all i was going to get, and i'd be bored and miserable forever. But after a while I slowly built a new life and there is joy. It takes time and its not easy. I had to commit myself that I was going to give it that time, and I like my jollies now, thankyouverymuch. That was hard for me. But slowly, imperceptibly, joy returns.
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I have been taking them for 8 yrs on and off. More off than on but 2 good years of sub every weekday.
I can feel the transotin is harder from h to subs. It takes me 2 days now not 1 like the past. But as long as you push that sub induction back at least 24 hrs its easier. I always use my cottons for my 12 noon shot and go to bed with the initial tired symptoms of withdrawL. When I wake up I try and take a benzo or lunesta and pass back out. Then when I wake up I take suboxone under the tongue. Make sure to not iv.
It does get harder to transition but come on we are smart and no free lunch last forever.
Sub is a great crutch to some and a structural pillar to others.
im figuring my own shit out but have lots of experience
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@nikita70
The "less is more" saying about subs really proved true in my case. It took me awhile of being on them to figure it out, too. We are so programmed to take more if we aren't feeling great, and with subs, there really seemed to be a sweet spot. Taking more than what I needed to get to the sweet spot would diminish the good effects. I guess what I'm trying to say is to try experimenting with different doses. As mentioned, it took me a long time to figure out what was meant by less is more. There was a particular day, though, that I had a long car ride ahead of me (6 or 7 hours) followed by what I hoped would be some real opiates. I was trying to not take any subs, so that I could feel the opiates when I got them. Well, I got the call, saying that it wouldn't be today, but tmrw, so feeling defeated, I took about a third of a normal dose. Maybe I'd usually take six mgs, and I took 2. About an hour later, I noticed a pretty significant mood lift. No buzz or anything, but I felt significantly better than if I had taken a normal size dose. I did some experimenting and found that the least amount I could away with felt the best. Give it a try. Everyone is different, but try experimenting with some different size doses. Hope you start feeling better. Your willpower has been admirable.
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Historically 2mg is about where I typically settle. Ima be tryin' again soon, after a couple weeks off the 'done, so I'll see what it takes for me again really soon, off a pretty healthy 3 yr maintenance jones.. Yay me.
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EA, will you transition asap or CT off Methadone for a bit then move over.
Why the two weeks break ?
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Ugh, that sounds awful, Nikita. I agree that personal issues can come into play. But when I started, I also felt that tolerable was all i was going to get, and i'd be bored and miserable forever. But after a while I slowly built a new life and there is joy. It takes time and its not easy. I had to commit myself that I was going to give it that time, and I like my jollies now, thankyouverymuch. That was hard for me. But slowly, imperceptibly, joy returns.
@Catsfordrugs , @LoneRanger7 ,
I fully agree that "less is more" in this case, I don't even need to somehow special 'restrain myself' to reach for another one pill.
On the contrary, there's something inside of me deterring and discouraging me to do it, as I can clearly realize/feel I have much enough.
My daily dose is about 2,5 mg and any additional amounts only makes matters worse than before.
This is not any achievement to me to be able to keep myself hang on there.
What bothers me really, I mean really, and makes me feel so bad is the stuff with my "BF". Since I realize that I may be almost stable on it if only this shit weren't involved, I wanted to scream out of desperation and fear.
I'm far from blaming him or so, he's finding himself as entangled as I am, however, if I'd relapse it's going to be not "because I have had such unbearable cravings". I mean cravings itself, in its sheer/pure meaning, like getting bored and whimsy.
Yeah, I know it does make any difference and there's ALWAYS an excuse.
Shit.
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EA, will you transition asap or CT off Methadone for a bit then move over.
Why the two weeks break ?
Current plan is to hop over to short-acting drugs for at least a couple weeks and then do the bup transition. Two weeks isn't very long after 3+ years on MMT, but it seems like a good time to do this considering the changes already happening, and I've got enough bup to last awhile once I stabilize on that.
Wish me luck! I may seriously need it brother O_O
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Wishing you lots of luck, of course.
Find some Morphine and take it orally but avoid Heroin so you don't push up your tolerance.
Keep us posted please.
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@LoneRanger7 Dope and weed are more enjoyable once you've gotten into them a little bit... every time I am looking forward or anticipating dope, it's underwhelming and anticlimactic. It's when you're into it daily that you get the good highs... for some reason.
I take tha all the way back... very very climactic lol. I don't know why people say you can't get high on methadone... it just takes more