dopetalk
General => General Discussion for Everybody => Topic started by: monkey business on January 06, 2016, 02:52:00 AM
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So I was watching this documentary on Netflix on Kurt Cobain's death and one of the things discussed was the amount of heroin in his system.
According to the toxicology report, Cobain had a blood morphine level of 1.52 mg's / liter at the time which would be roughly the equivalent of 225 mg's of heroin IV.
The narrator goes on to claim that this is over 3x the lethal limit even for a heavy user and that there's no way Cobain could've remained conscious much less fired a gun after injecting such a large amount.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but 225mg is little bit under a quarter gram, right?
I mean even if we're talking 100% pure here, I just can't imagine that being anywhere near 3x the lethal limit, even for a light/moderate user. If that were true than the lethal limit would have to be around 70mg's (less than 0.1 g's), which from my experience seems way too low.
What do you guys think?
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Me and Andi had the same talk. I know at the time our habit was right around that if I recall.
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I'm guessing it's three times the LD50 for a normal, non-using person. And even then LD50 means that dose is a lethal dose for fifty percent of people. So some people would survive it.
I'm also guessing that the narrator and documentary people got their facts wrong. Happens a lot with drug programs. It even happens on the History channel, that is when you can actually find history on the standard channel. History Channel is a hacky, second rate version of most BBC history documentaries IMO. End rant.
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It's possible to have a huge tolerance but it doesn't sound right to me, if that's what you're asking.
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that shit is retarded. I hate it when the news or documentaries try to equate opioid amounts to normal people.
"HE COULDN'T HAVE BEEN CONSCIOUS LET ALONE FIRED A GUN AT THAT BLOOD LEVEL"
Such bullshit, I used to take 170mgs of methadone a day, and shoot 10 bags of dope a day. So, if some dipshit journalist was reporting on my blood levels at the time, they'd be like "Dizzle was taking over 5 times the lethal dose of methadone ("lethal dose" is 25-30mgs, not LD50 people, big difference!) and shooting over 10 times the lethal dose of heroin per day, he could not have been conscious!" ------ I'll tell ya, YEP, I was, hell, I was working at a restaurant serving tables, busting my ass.
So, to answer your q, no, that's not right, though I've read FOR A NON-TOLERANT person, 75mgs IV heroin is a lethal dose, which is very true, but I've also read that people with serious habits (I'm sure Kurt had one) could withstand over 1800mgs of pharmaceutical dope, so the moral of the story is don't trust the news....
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So I was watching this documentary on Netflix on Kurt Cobain's death and one of the things discussed was the amount of heroin in his system.
According to the toxicology report, Cobain had a blood morphine level of 1.52 mg's / liter at the time which would be roughly the equivalent of 225 mg's of heroin IV.
The narrator goes on to claim that this is over 3x the lethal limit even for a heavy user and that there's no way Cobain could've remained conscious much less fired a gun after injecting such a large amount.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but 225mg is little bit under a quarter gram, right?
I mean even if we're talking 100% pure here, I just can't imagine that being anywhere near 3x the lethal limit, even for a light/moderate user. If that were true than the lethal limit would have to be around 70mg's (less than 0.1 g's), which from my experience seems way too low.
What do you guys think?
This is what immediately jumped out from me when I reat the post. Are you sure hose number are correct?
-DC
[ADDED] On the other hand,he had been down in a CA detox and may have had a reduced tolerance but then shot his regular pre-detox dose. THAT happens all the time.
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Yeah, in the circumstances that's just wrong- the dope was probably to take the edge off putting a gun in his mouth.
Nick Broomfield's "Kurt and Courtney" goes into this and is worth checking out.
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Ya good call....it's crap reporting. It was well known Kurt was a heavy user, you can find numerous quotes from people saying "he always did waaay too much"
And DeadCat is right as well, he had just bounced from a treatment center, but had only been there 3-5 days IIRC, that last week of his life I suspect he was doing as much as he could score with what cash he had, Courtney cancelled his credit card when she found out he left treatment.
I agree with Nick in that he just did the heroin for that one last 'Hoorah' and to give himself courage for what he was about to do, so you can be sure it was a doozy.
Kurt was a small guy too, so there's that. The lethal limit for him wouldn't be the same as a larger person, yeah? I just don't get how they gauge such things.
I think he wrote the letter, shot up, and BOOM!! let himself out......that is if you believe the suicide theory, which I do now. I used to think that Courtney was responsible, but now that I'm older and a little wiser, she may have been part of the reason but I don't think she had him killed or did it herself.
What's sad is that we will never know.
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A quarter gram of %100 pure diamorph is enough to kill 3 90lb people who've never had so much as a Vicodin.
Cops lie, journalists exaggerate.. They always gotta sensationalize everything, otherwise their shit would start sounding boring pretty fast.
I remember reading somewhere Kurt had a shit-ton of Valium in his system too, so there's that.
The dope in Seattle at that time was pretty good, ~$10/point and usually worth it for even one or two bags.
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Yeah, and I just took 3 times the lethal dose of morphine, by ingesting a gallon of poppy seed tea. And yet I'm still conscious, and typing this stuff.
Seems like this is pretty much par for the course, when the square public-at-large is discussing lethal amounts of narcotics. It's always much less than what it is in reality. And besides, there's really no reliable way to predict how much of a dose it will take to end someone's life. So many variables come into play.
Time for some fun with pharmacokinetics. A drug's volume of distribution is equal to the total amount of drug in the body, divided by its steady state plasma concentration. For morphine, the VD is 245 liters. At 1.52mg/l, that would give an initial dose, assuming IV bolus, of about 372mg. I don't know where they got the number for the IV dose he took, but the math doesn't add up.
A drug with a high VD is highly lipophilic, low VD indicates high hydrophilicity. A drug that is extremely lipophilic, like THC, has a very high VD. For THC, the VD is from 4 to 14L/Kg. So, for a 70Kg person, that value would be as high as 928L.
Of course, volumes of distribution for various drugs are all gross estimations, based on averages over large samples. They are sometimes reported as Liters per Kilogram, sometimes just as a single value. Volumes of distribution vary from male to female as well, due to females having higher percentage of body fat.
Interesting stuff, to be sure.
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Hah, I wonder what reporters would say about my 70mg-80mg oxym shots back when I could afford such lovely luxuries.
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I've done one gram shots of some pretty damn good dope... that's on top of my 120 mgs of methadone. Not to mention the times I was doing benzos... tolerance to opiates can rise infinitely.
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I'm guessing it's three times the LD50 for a normal, non-using person. And even then LD50 means that dose is a lethal dose for fifty percent of people. So some people would survive it.
I'm also guessing that the narrator and documentary people got their facts wrong. Happens a lot with drug programs. It even happens on the History channel, that is when you can actually find history on the standard channel. History Channel is a hacky, second rate version of most BBC history documentaries IMO. End rant.
It actually sounded like the narrator was specifically referring to heavy IV users when he made that statement, which is why it seemed so ridiculous. He even later said something along the lines of, "a shot that size would kill a non-tolerant person 10 times over..."
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It actually sounded like the narrator was specifically referring to heavy IV users when he made that statement, which is why it seemed so ridiculous. He even later said something along the lines of, "a shot that size would kill a non-tolerant person 10 times over..."
Chalk it up to misunderstood facts, misrepresenting the facts, and generally bad narration. Happens all the time unfortunately. It always amazes me that more people don't complain about this type of stuff. Make the industry use fact checkers, or use better fact checkers. Something like that. I guess society in general is just full of couch potatoes who want to be numbly "informed," without thinking about things, while they sit there eating their sammiches. American infotainment.
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I still think Courtney had something to do with it still. Maybe it's just me. There's a doc were it brings up some really valid points. Makes me dislike her and hole even more..
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I still think Courtney had something to do with it still. Maybe it's just me. There's a doc were it brings up some really valid points. Makes me dislike her and hole even more..
You don't wanna see her doll parts? LOL. Sorry, couldn't resist.
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if you're into watching or reading about the case, watch Soaked in Bleach, I believe released recently. goes into tom grants recordings of courtney.
http://putlocker.ms/watch-soaked-in-bleach-online-free-2015-putlocker-v4.html
interesting to note only 4 latent prints were lifted from the gun, and non usable. also that the gun was upside-down
with his left hand on the barrel, considering he was left handed.
also worth nothing is that someone had attempted to use his credit card after he was known to be dead
its a fun case to read about
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I still think Courtney had something to do with it still. Maybe it's just me. There's a doc were it brings up some really valid points. Makes me dislike her and hole even more..
I read something a while ago written by the investigator she hired to 'find' Kurt, his name escapes me ATM. Tom Grant?
Spoke at length about how she was generally uncooperative and very misleading in regards to the investigaton prior to and following his death. Why would you do that if you weren't guilty or involved somehow?
The truth will come out....I can reserve judgement until we know more.
edit: (facepalm) I didn't read what Neighbor wrote until just now.....yeah, Tom Grant ;D
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if you're into watching or reading about the case, watch Soaked in Bleach, I believe released recently. goes into tom grants recordings of courtney.
Yeah I'm pretty sure that's the one I watched... It's on Netflix, right?
I still think Courtney had something to do with it still. Maybe it's just me. There's a doc were it brings up some really valid points. Makes me dislike her and hole even more..
The documentary neighbor was referring to above (Soaked in Bleach) is actually all about that. It's pretty good and brought up a bunch of stuff I didn't know about re: Cobain's death. If you're into that stuff then you should check it out for sure!
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I watched it yesterday. Damned if it doesn't make Courtney Love look like a prime suspect. But she's always been a weirdo and acted oddly, no?
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You don't wanna see her doll parts? LOL. Sorry, couldn't resist.
Actually the doc. on hbo, "Montage of heck" was chock full of her parts. Some stages her tits and body overall, were actually pretty fucking hot, in that dirty junky slut kinda way, but still.
And some other pieces of old footage of her topless, was kinda gross.
Also I noticed a production or editing credit to their daughter, Francis bean. Struck me as kinda odd, but I guess since she's over 18, she's technically prob. head of his estate, or whatever.
Then just now when I checked wiki to get more info, it doesn't list her anywhere. Not that Wikipedia is the most reliable source of info out there, (a la Michael Scott) but still I know I saw her name, was the first credit to roll right at the end.
Kinda weird way to go over old family home movies. That must've been a total mind fuck for her.
Also nirvana's unplugged was THE greatest unplugged they ever made. I can remember almost shedding a tear watching him do that leadbelly cover near the end. Fuck he almost shed a tear singing it.
Seriously say what you will about "grunge", but that fucking albumn, video, whatever, was pretty fucking amazing.
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Yeah soaked in bleach is the doc the question this thread is about came from. In it they showed a lot of interesting facts and made a damn good argument that love masterminded his death.!
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Actually the doc. on hbo, "Montage of heck" was chock full of her parts. Some stages her tits and body overall, were actually pretty fucking hot, in that dirty junky slut kinda way, but still.
And some other pieces of old footage of her topless, was kinda gross.
Also I noticed a production or editing credit to their daughter, Francis bean. Struck me as kinda odd, but I guess since she's over 18, she's technically prob. head of his estate, or whatever.
Then just now when I checked wiki to get more info, it doesn't list her anywhere. Not that Wikipedia is the most reliable source of info out there, (a la Michael Scott) but still I know I saw her name, was the first credit to roll right at the end.
Kinda weird way to go over old family home movies. That must've been a total mind fuck for her.
Also nirvana's unplugged was THE greatest unplugged they ever made. I can remember almost shedding a tear watching him do that leadbelly cover near the end. Fuck he almost shed a tear singing it.
Seriously say what you will about "grunge", but that fucking albumn, video, whatever, was pretty fucking amazing.
I have a feeling Francis bean has been seeing those home movies of her crazy ass mom and dad since she was born...
Whether she wanted to or not.
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I read something a while ago written by the investigator she hired to 'find' Kurt, his name escapes me ATM. Tom Grant?
Spoke at length about how she was generally uncooperative and very misleading in regards to the investigaton prior to and following his death. Why would you do that if you weren't guilty or involved somehow?
The truth will come out....I can reserve judgement until we know more.
edit: (facepalm) I didn't read what Neighbor wrote until just now.....yeah, Tom Grant ;D
Yea Tom grant was the personal investigator Courteney hired to find when he went missing. Little did she know he uncovered a lot of key points in that case. If I'm not mistaken he tried to re open the case. Of course he was shut down. Courtny had to much to gain off kurts death! Kurt wrote most the licks for celebrity skin. What a waste.
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Say what you will about Courtney Love and her band, the album "Celebrity Skin" is fucking amazing. It's one of those you can listen to all the way through and not want to skip any songs. When I say that about an album, it's a real compliment.
That being said, Courtney is a fucking stupid bitch and I think she sucks as a person. She could die after that record came out and I wouldn't care a bit.
"Boys on the Radio" is a great fucking tune:
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Say what you will about Courtney Love and her band, the album "Celebrity Skin" is fucking amazing. It's one of those you can listen to all the way through and not want to skip any songs. When I say that about an album, it's a real compliment.
That being said, Courtney is a fucking stupid bitch and I think she sucks as a person. She could die after that record came out and I wouldn't care a bit.
"Boys on the Radio" is a great fucking tune:
I agree, fuck Courtney with a big ol fat one. Her music can stay though.