dopetalk
Core Topics => Substance Usage, Management, User Experiences etc. => Topic started by: Diacetylmorphinefiend on September 04, 2015, 08:14:07 AM
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Ok I've been using aplolazam a few times a week for the last 6 months I would say. I have not had and ANY sign of physical dependancy so far. Nor do i have a history of benzo dependancy My tolerance has slightly raised over this period going from 1mg to 1.5mg to get comfortable. Recently I have become anxious about developing a physical dependancy. I think this is partly me being a hypochondriac and partly legit concern based on starting gabapentin. Which I heard also effects GABA receptors though I am uneducated about its effects combined with alprolazam.
What are your experiences? I am hopeing the super short half life of the drug will save me from dependancy. If I take 4 1mg doses in a 5 day period for a prolonged period of time am I likely to develop a dependancy? If so what would be a better schedule? I am not fully mentally addicted yet IMO so I feel like I can still avoid this disaster. Thanks for any help or input you can offer.
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Hmm. So your getting anxieties thinking about dependency.
Wonder if there is a medication to help you with that?
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Honestly at every five days I dont think you have much to worry about imo.
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You're supplementing your bens with gaba. You made your problem worse. Xanax is one of the worst to get over use long term because it's so short acting.
When's the last time you went 96 hours, 4 days without them?
Edit oh fuck five days!? Missed that.
Eh ya you're fine.
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what an excellent thread.
in the real spirit of harm reduction, if I may state that.
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You're supplementing your bens with gaba. You made your problem worse. Xanax is one of the worst to get over use long term because it's so short acting.
When's the last time you went 96 hours, 4 days without them?
Edit oh fuck five days!? Missed that.
Eh ya you're fine.
It probably has been awhile since I went 96 hours without any dose. What I meant by the 5 day comment was that I will eat 4mg spaced out in 1mg doses over a 5 day period. I'll edit to make more clear.
And if it's. It too much trouble could someone explain gabapentin mechanism of action and how it relates to its dependance. I really want to know more about this drug but both my psychiatrist and methadone counselor begged me to just trust in the system and doctors. Should I stop the gabapentin I'm on 900mg a day. Only been taking it 2 weeks.
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dunno if this helps any, but my buddy has been doin a lotta zanny the last year, intially a lot, like 10+ pills a day. nowadays, he takes 2-4mg a day to stay good.
BUT, he doesn't really start getting real withdrawals until the third day without taking any. obviously he doesnt feel great has trouble sleeping the first cpl days, but its not until the third day that he starts feeling real withdrawals as well as jerking/twitching and by the end of the third day hes having seizures and biting his tongue off.
ive been taking bars like 1-2 days a week, normally 4 bars over the course of like 24 hours for the last 4-6 months. and ive noticed that towards the end of the week i have serious trouble sleeping and bad anxiety (i dont really get anxiety ever unless ive just begun taking suboxone recently or im detoxing) and a few months ago, id take one bar and my memory for the next 6 hours would be nonexsistant. last few weeks ive been taking like 3-4 bars once a week, (i take 2 bars, then maybe an hour later another, and another hr i take the 4th) and my memory is pretty much intact. like its spotty, but i can watch a new episode of a tv show and be able to fully recall all the details.
another side note, i used to get scripted #120 1mg klonopins. I'd take them all in 10-14 days every month for about 2 years and never experienced any withdrawal from them. I was also drinking 12-24 beers a night during that time period. then i met a girl, moved in with her, stopped drinking, stopped taking kpins, and just continued my suboxone and i had no trouble sleeping (but i did work 10hr days manual labor)
the friend i mentioned that has seizures from bar withdrawal is in his mid 40s, says hes been off and on addicted to bars for 15 years, his habit in the past has been worse then it has been this last year, but back in the day he never experienced the withdrawals that he does now. i get the impression that there are a lot of factors that come into play with benzo tolerance and withdrawal ranging from what other drugs you take, your bodys metabolism, shit like that. i met my buddy in jail and he said he had a habit way worse than he does now, when he got to jail and cold turkeyed xanax he didn't have seizures at all, but now he does, but he also ODed and fucked his body up bad before he got to jail (kidneys shut down, was in a coma and shit)
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Geez. I have to fly Saturday so I'll have to take a mg or two then and I'm on 1.5 mg right now. But after that I'm going to try and take a week off and see what happens. Do you guys think I should discontinue the prescribed gabapentin as well? I've been taking it two weeks but not in obscene doses like 600 mg a day probably. Fuck I'm scared. I always thought Xanax withdrawals would hit fast due to its short half life. I also thought that would save me from addiction if I put two three days between uses and kept my doses reasonable.
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Maybe you did and you won't have a that tough a time at all. At worst a few sleepless nights, rls etc. is what I got 2-3 days later after stopping 2-3 mg of etiz-which has a very short halflife- every 24-48 hours for most of 6 months. A small (1 lb) dose of seeds took care of both symptoms quite nicely.
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Maybe you did and you won't have a that tough a time at all. At worst a few sleepless nights, rls etc. is what I got 2-3 days later after stopping 2-3 mg of etiz-which has a very short halflife- every 24-48 hours for most of 6 months. A small (1 lb) dose of seeds took care of both symptoms quite nicely.
Hopefully. I am prescribed 130 mg of methadone rhough the clinic. And I got weed but thats bout it.
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i think its possible.
my boss claims he takes a half(unsure of dose) every morning. but he drinks at night so i guess that subs the gaba action.
shit unrelated, but i've been doing tiapentine(weird legal opiod) only at night after work and sometimes once in the morning.(its short acting fyi) for over a month and i ran out and experienced no withdrawals.
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It too much trouble could someone explain gabapentin mechanism of action and how it relates to its dependance. I really want to know more about this drug but both my psychiatrist and methadone counselor begged me to just trust in the system and doctors. Should I stop the gabapentin I'm on 900mg a day. Only been taking it 2 weeks.
Ok. I don't know how much you know about neural transporters and how they relate to different receptor subset types so we'll try to make this basic.
Of the major neural transporter chemicals we naturally have in our brains (serotonin, epinephrine, etc.) one of them is called GABA which stands for Gamma-aminobutyric acid.
Gabapentin acts as a structural analog(same thing) as gaba. To your body, it sees those carbon chains as the same thing. That's the key. No big breakthrough, your body just think's it's the same thing so anything, any neural pathway, any receptor that your brain naturally was sending GABA too, gabapetin will also activate.
Why does it work for the things it does such as prevent seizures? Well millions have been invested into that question and I don't have a solid and straight "fda" answer for you. It's why it's prescribed "off label" so often.
But the shit does work.
This is also why you see me colloquially refer to Gabapentin as just gaba in conversation online.
Should you keep taking it? Only you can make that call brother but I would be firmly in the Yes category.
900 a day is a solid low starting dose. For comparison, i'm perscribed 3200mg a day.
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What is the gabapentin prescribed for in your case? pain?
Basically what Jega is saying is that gabapentin and benzos work on the same system, the GABA system is your body's inhibtory mechanism--it slows down your nervous system, which is why you get anxiety and seizures and other nervous system overexcitement symptoms when you are dependent and you stop abruptly. Its opposing neurotransmitter is glutamate, which speeds everything up.
So yes taking gabapentin every day can cause you to get dependent on IT, and along with Xanax can in general cause a similar syndrome you get with any benzo addiction. It's a little bit similar to, like, doing heroin every few days but taking codiene on the days you don't use it--you wont be addicted to heroin per se but you will have an overall opiate dependence. There are other drugs that work on the GABA system like phenibut, or like lamictal which works to decrease glutamate (effectively doing the same thing as the drugs that increase gaba). All of these will cause a similar withdrawal syndrome if stopped abruptly, but benzos are the most severe.
So if you want to try to take full and complete gaba-system reset breaks for a stretch of days in between your xanax use, you would want to stop the gaba. But you may be taking it for a good reason. So I can't tell you what to do. Gaba is definitely less addictive and has a less severe WD than Xanax.
I think the best way to avoid dependence on both meds would be to take a break of a week or so periodically. That is how you can gauge whether you are becoming dependent or not: if you have trouble sleeping or anxiety panic during this time. But make sure to keep some of both around during the break (or at least a slow acting benzo like klonopin or valium), because if you start having moderate to severe symptoms you will need to put yourself back on at least one of the meds and do a slow taper.
One more thing: the gaba system is susceptible to kindling, which is a phenomenon where each successive withdrawal makes the next one worse. Its not like opiates; with gaba-ergic drugs every time you make yourself suffer in withdrawal or try to tough it out you are doing MORE damage to your nervous system, and increasing your chances of more intense dependence and withdrawal in the future. After enough times like that you could even cause your system to react paradoxically; can you imagine being in opiate withdrawal and having fucked up your brain so much that taking an opiate not only would not help with the WD symptoms, but it would actually make them worse?
So if you do find you have stumbled into dependence at some point you need a long, slow taper, not only for comfort reasons but because that is the only way to keep your nervous system working properly.
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I was given the gabapentin for anxiety. I guess I have dug myself a grave without even realizing it. Fuck. I'm stopping both drugs as of last night. I assume I will know fairly quickly if I'm in withdrawal.
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It's a Great, absolutely excellent, anti-anxiety medication that gets you off a scheduled substance.
(though if it was going through the review process in 2015 I don't see how it wouldn't be scheduled. Hell they gave lyrica a 5 lol)
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Ok after more thought. What if I continue the 900mg gabapentin a day but cut my Xanax use down to once a week? Would that be a sustainable usage pattern? If not what would be? Basically I like Xanax as a recreational drug but I don't have a steady supply all the time. That's why I don't want to get physically addicted.
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That sounds perfectly rational and reasonable.
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Thanks jega. I'll post an update if/when I start feeling withdraw from the Xanax. I'm continuing the gabapentin at 900mg a day. If I do start feeling withdrawal would upping my gabapentin dose be a good idea?
Thanks to everyone for all the help and info! I would of been fucked otherwise.
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You'll be fine. And frankly as infrequently as you intend to take them, if you need to take a xanax, take a fucking xanax. You'll be fine.
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makita, that was a great post ! *claps, sort of*
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From Wiki:
"Though similar in structure to the endogenous neurotransmitter GABA, gabapentin has not been shown to bind to GABA receptors at concentrations at or below 1 mM. Gabapentin modulates the action of glutamate decarboxylase (GAD) and branched chain aminotransferase (BCAT), two enzymes involved in GABA biosynthesis. In human and rat studies, gabapentin was found to increase GABA biosynthesis, and to increase non-synaptic GABA neurotransmission in vitro.
The GABA biosynthesis-increasing effects act at the transcriptional level and cannot explain the immediate effect one gets when taking a large dose of gabapentin. Despite the literature that's out there, I believe it must act at very significantly some receptor-binding level. Increasing non-synaptic GABA neurotransmission, which has been shown in vitro, is intriguing, however.
I'd like to think that it just acts as a more potent version of the natural neurotransmitter, but it's not that simple, unfortunately, like with many drugs.
It definitely does something to GABA-ergic neurotransmission, though. And can't high-dose gabapentin (and pregabalin, I'd presume also) jack up your tolerance to benzos, alcohol and basically anything that affects GABA?
Jega? Anything you'd like to say about that?
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I think it's bullshit, i've seen studies that say the opposite. Im working on an Etiz post and when i'm done i'll go over your study.
But if you just look at the chemical structure of Gaba and gabapentin, you can see how it could be treated as GABA(a) at the receptor sites.
After using this for more then a decade, I don't believe every study on gabapentin. Just throwing that out there
Edit: Ok First off were talking about tests on gaba at extremely low amounts.
I've seen where it shows activity at calcium channels. It's possible. But I would imagine that it's a metabolite. I know that's why they tested such a small about but you have a chemical mind zoops. In your mind imagine the structure of gabapentin and gaba and think what would happen to gabapentin after first pass. How would that structure look.
I still think at prescription (or higher) doses it's comparative agonist (not necessarily competitive but companion) at GABA sites.
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at concentrations at or below 1 mM
I have no idea how to relate this to dosage, but it seems to be a low level?
I'd be pretty hardpressed to believe that regular use of GP wouldn't bring a risk of dependency..
Kinda like how some insist that GABA doesn't cross the BBB. GABA actually works quite well for me to help alleviate WD; it's not a miracle fix, but it definitely helps.
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In your mind imagine the structure of gabapentin and gaba and think what would happen to gabapentin after first pass. How would that structure look.
Hard to believe it wouldn't be a jacked-up version of GABA itself, with that hydrophobic attachment on it to help it get into the nerve cells. What I'm saying is I agree with you that it must have some GABA-agonist activity
But it's not metabolized at all, really. Instead, it's renally excreted unchanged. One would expect, though, that the ring part of the structure might be hydroxylated by some hepatic enzyme or collection thereof.
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The only thing that helped me from becoming dependent on benzos again was having my doctor prescribe me a super low dose that I usually end up using it all in 4-5 days. Thats the only thing thats worked for me as my self control is not anywhere near good enough to have them around everyday unless someone was giving them to me when needed. I get depression really bad the days after I take them for a few days and crave getting high but can't seem to stop refilling my benzo scripts. it's just to easy to call in a refill or goto the doctor for 10 minute especially sense I have medicaid and my scripts are a dollar and my doc visits are $2.
Griffin
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I haven't taken any Xanax since Saturday afternoon and so far so good no withdrawal. I really wish I understood all of you guys conversation.
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at concentrations at or below 1 mM
I have no idea how to relate this to dosage, but it seems to be a low level?
I'd be pretty hardpressed to believe that regular use of GP wouldn't bring a risk of dependency..
Kinda like how some insist that GABA doesn't cross the BBB. GABA actually works quite well for me to help alleviate WD; it's not a miracle fix, but it definitely helps.
if it's Gabapentin then what's the optimum dosage ? they never worked for me.
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if it's Gabapentin then what's the optimum dosage ? they never worked for me.
No idea, I've only taken GP like twice and all it seems to do to me is make me really dizzy. I tend to really dig GABA agonists, but apparently not that one..
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at concentrations at or below 1 mM
I have no idea how to relate this to dosage, but it seems to be a low level?
I'd be pretty hardpressed to believe that regular use of GP wouldn't bring a risk of dependency..
Kinda like how some insist that GABA doesn't cross the BBB. GABA actually works quite well for me to help alleviate WD; it's not a miracle fix, but it definitely helps.
if it's Gabapentin then what's the optimum dosage ? they never worked for me.
My unscientific response is that 900mg feels good to me.
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if it's Gabapentin then what's the optimum dosage ? they never worked for me.
My unscientific response is that 900mg feels good to me.
that much ? wow, ok no wonder i got nothing from it.
and YES, we can and must talk about dosages on this site. I am in full support of that despite it being frowned upon at Opiophile
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But it's not metabolized at all, really. Instead, it's renally excreted unchanged. One would expect, though, that the ring part of the structure might be hydroxylated by some hepatic enzyme or collection thereof.
Ok zoops let me implant this idea in your head. What if some is metabolised but very very small amounts. That's why let's say larger then pharmaceutical doses cause the effects they do.
I'm just asking if you think it's possible.
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Exuse me if this has been brought up before
But I onced watched a documantary
Made a by a doctor
In Australia IIRC
Who was saying that Xanax is more addictive then heroin
He wasn't anti writing it
But one of the things I found curious
Was when he was saying that once you start
Taking them on a daily basis I.e. how they are prescribed
The more anxiety you experience
As to the OP
I'm not comfortable giving anyhng that would be deemed as dosage advice
With that said...
I think you'll be OK
Considering the low dose you have been talking
On I noticed I built up a tolerance to them too faßt
Sucks ass
I wish I could get that chilled out relaxed feeling I get
From taking the first 8
It's a shame you can't feel like that with every dose
But I think you'll be OK
You've only been doing it for a little bit
And it's not like your not taking up
To 30mgs like I was
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My best guess is to use them in situational scenarios that you simply can't handle... Or a crippling panic attack.
Once it becomes recreational, or daily dosing.... You're fucked already.
Leave em alone altogether would be anyone's best bet.
I'm serious as hell when I say that the dependency REALLY creeps up on you with this particular substance. I'm fighting like hell (once a-fucking-gain) to hang the shit up.
Down from talking anywhere from 40mg Valium, 8mg Clonzepam, and/or 8mg of Xanax on the daily (prior to my start of my taper) now down to 1mg to 2mg Xanax maximum, on the daily.
Id fucking love to just quit the damn shit... But that's another story altogether. I think I may need fucking rehab for real, like a 90 day dry out. There's no other fucking way I pull it off at this particular juncture in my life. Not without a place to just hide away, lick my wounds.
I hate being reminded of my worst enemy/best fucking friend.
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Snoop: I think I know what you mean by it sneaking up on you. I think it has to do with the memory loss aspect. There where times when I felt like I hadn't taken one in a while but when I thought back I had taken a football 5 out of the last 7 days. Even now that I am becoming alarmed I find it hard to resist taking one. I took 2 mg last night as my reward for making it 5 days without taking any. If that's not a sign of a brewing addiction I dunno what is. I really don't want this addiction but I just have too much access. Hopefully I can keep the physical dependancy at bay foras long as possible.
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More like: How long can I fuck around with Xanax and shit before I cop a habit?
Everyone is different, there's nothing even close to a straight answer. Some people will start flopping around after a week of Ativan, some people take months or years, some people never get a habit despite regular use.
For me I was mixing Temazepam with lots of wine and it took maybe 2mos before I really started noticing it, like rebounding hard, and once I took a pill or had a drink, really suddenly I REALLY felt like I needed more pills &/or wine NOW. Like I'd be anxious but really mostly ok, until I had a drink, and then mostly psychological became very much physical really fast. My first few pints went down quick. That's how it started for me, I was totally asking for it, but really desperate for sleep so figured I'd pay later, and pay I did.
@Snoops: 1mg is good! Hang in there dude you just gotta start making smaller cuts, but wait until you're stable, no harm in waiting a week or two if you gotta wait. It didn't really get HARD for me until I was under .5mg Xanax, Try shaving small but consistent sized pieces off with a really sharp blade. It's no race brother, progress is progress. For me with Xanax (it's all I had) I dosed 2x a day until down to like .25mg, then 1x day. When you're pushing yourself and really feeling like it's time for a dose and a half-hour is a fucking eternity from dose time, try sublingual dosing, I definitely felt those small desperate doses quicker under my tongue..
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I used to take xanax and clonaz. sublingual too.
seems to work faster, as our friend above pointed out.