I shoulda fucking listened...

[Dopeless Hopefiend (OP)]

to @dizzle and all of the rest of you that advised against my MMT to bupe transition. Fuck. So I waited 5 fucking days with no methadone, took oxy for the first 3 & felt great. Then 2 days with out any opis and the day of my induction arrived. I just didn't feel THAT sick. I mean I felt crappy but not half as bad as I'd expected to.
So, I went to my appointment planning to try to reschedule it for the next day. But my "expert sub doctor" insisted that I would be just fine inducing at a 12 on the COWS Scale. I argued for a while that I just didn't feel ready, but she was like "trust me, I've done inductions way lower than this & they've gone very smoothly" "it's been 5 days, you're good I'm sure of it." So like a fucking idiot I went against everything I was feeling and said ok let's do it. Took 4 mg, no real change, 4 more, still about the same. At this point she sent me home to try and eat something and get some sleep. She told me to take up to 8 more mgs later in the day until I felt better. Then about 20 minutes after leaving... Bam! It hit me & and I was in full on PWD. This shit was the worst thing I've ever felt in my life . Kicking a 2g a day heroin habit on the floor of a cell was close, but not as bad as yesterday by a long shot. I seriously would have welcomed death at a few points through the day. I just kept taking subs & took like 3mg of lorazepam, 2mg of clonazepam & a couple of phennies to give the benzos a little boost, then I pretty much have blacked out. I was still sicker than shit from the PWD but all fucked up on benzos at the same time. Seriously. Worst. Fucking. Day. Of. My. Life. Hands down. But hey, I lost 13 lbs over the week.

[Dopeless Hopefiend (OP)]

And how does anyone ever get used to the taste of these things. They're fuckin horrible.

[Chip]

You made it worse by maintaining on Oxy for a few days - day 5 with no done would've helped.

so how are you now ? on the Bupe and stable ? I hope so because you would've lowered your tolly by now.

... which is a good place to be. no pain, no gain.

[Esoteric Anhydride]

So after a day of being sick and eating more subs you feel better?

Like how much better??

[Griffin]

That blows! I remember when it happened to me vividly, sitting in the docs office, cold sweat, bout to shit my pants, puking, and shaking so bad I couldn't stand on my own, hit me all at once. Same shit the doc wasn't there so she had a nurse do the induction and she called him while he was at his conference and he said to induct me and that I was fine even though I wasn't sick had chewed up 300 mgs of er morphine 30 hrs earlier.

When I got sick he told her to send me home with NO INSTRUCTIONS at all, I couldn't get a hold of the dickhead for 3 days didn't know to take more or what.

My gf at the time was 100% against getting me dope, and of course there were no pills to be found, and I couldn't get out of bed. I took so much xanax, clonodine, flexeril, gabapentin, and dabs of 100% indica hash and weed every time I woke up. It was a nightmare every time I woke up soaking wet bed trying to get down all the pills and weed I could. I am just glad that I was able to force myself to pass out because when in reg w/d sometimes it didn't matter what I took sleep was never happening. Finally after 3 days he called back and told me to take more and I slowly started feeling better over the next week.

Never felt right in the 10 months on and off subs though, terrible anxiety, depression, and cravings constantly I was in like a 10 month constant mental half physical w/d so I chipped once a week making it even worse ramping up my tolerance until I had to take like 1000 mgs of oxy a day and I was making so much money I could afford it. I'd go hard for 4-5 days, w/d for one take subs for 4-5 days w/d for 3, take a bunch more oxy and then repeat the cycle. I am quite envious of the people who subs work for but can't really complain because how amazingly mmt works for me.

Good luck with it, hopefully the hard part is over now. Don't chip and ramp your tolerance up, if you were able to stay clean on the done and not on the subs you might want to try getting back on MMT but hopefully you can stay clean and then jump off everything if thats what you wanna do. Don't beat yourself up if you can't though if you can afford the subs and its not a hassle there's nothing wrong with taking em every day if its keeping you clean in my book.

[Dopeless Hopefiend (OP)]

I feel you @Griffin it was fucking agony. I didn't even try to take any opiates, because I figured it wouldn't matter how many I took they wouldn't be able to break through the subs anyway. I did how ever keep taking benzos & promethazine til I blacked out.

@Esoteric Anhydride I'd say I feel about 60% normal today. Not spectacular but compared to yesterday, it's great. I was finally able to eat something besides saltine crackers and gummy bears this evening so I'm headed in the right direction.

I did stay clean on MMT Griffin, I haven't shot heroin since i found out I was pregnant with my daughter in 2007. I hope I'll have the same luck with subs. Methadone worked great for me, it was the side effects like always sweating and all the weight gain, no sex drive, etc.  Going back on MMT at this point would suck. I've missed 5 days in a row, so I'd have to readmit  and start back at 6 days a week in the clinic and a bunch of bullshit groups. Can't do it.
@chipper I agree I probably fucked myself with the oxys. I stopped taking them 36 hours before my appt though, so I figured I'd be alright. That's what I get for thinking.

[dizzle]

Hey we've all been there. Of course I'm not trying to dimish your experience, but we've all been on the side of "I've got a great doc and he has done tons of inductions and he's using the paws scale."

And then u have a day like yesterday, and you realize all that is bullshit. That YOU KNOW YOUR BODY, u know more about how opiates effect you than some jerkoff that invented the PAWS scale, that we've done and maintained on more opiates than they've ever prescribed, if you multiply all the hours theyve spent studying by 100 they maybe have as much experience as us.

I don't fault you, it's part of the game. Just know that you took way too much subs for the first day. If I were you I'd have started at 2mg for the first 24 hours. Subs antagonist properties increase exponentially as your dose increases.


Again, I'm glad you're feeling better. I hope you can make work whatever you want to make work.

[Chip]

I can't wait to get off Methadone too ... but I will do the taper. my friend got off Methadone just a month or two ago but has hit the bottle more than ever, the fool - he has HepB and his liver is failing -- he'd be better off taking drugs.

I hope you can kick the bupe - I am so sick of being on maintenance. over it.

much luck - I'm sure you can do it if you got this far.

[Esoteric Anhydride]

That jump is no joke, especially with only a few days off the juice itself. Good for you.

How much bup have you taken at this point, total?

[Griffin]

Yeah definitely let us know what your dose is when you get comfortable and back to normal. I hear you on going back on mmt, after I did a month in jail I waited another 3 months to decide to get back on it because I'd already gotten that far and was hoping it'd get better. I am finally getting back to two weeks at a time on Tuesday, yesterday was a year back on, I started in nov. 2013 and then got arrested the beginning of march and restarted June 30th.

It's such a hassle to jump through all the hoops I was pissed that I had to go back to daily's because when I got out of jail I went to the clinic twice a month for free drug counseling because my counselor was awesome and I wanted to try to stay off which I was able to stay clean until I got back on, mainly because I wasn't about to get another charge or go back to jail at that point. My counselor went to a different company 2 weeks so I have the jerk off director to deal with until the new one gets settled, I admire you making the effort to jump.

I hate the side effects as well, always hot, sweating, non-existent sex drive, I gained 100lbs in the first year and have just dropped 40 of it but still need to lose another 50 to be normal, probably how most mmt people feel. I got on Testosterone 2 weeks ago so I am praying that takes care of some of these side effects it's already helped quite a bit getting me to start working out and I feel better because of that.

That is awesome that you have been able to stay clean that long! Good luck with everything, and let us know how it goes I am sure most people are curious. I personally will probably never touch the stuff again but who knows what the future holds. I was so pissed when in pwd, I didn't know whether to take more subs or to go find dope I was worried both would make me sick and couldn't get a hold of the doc until I started feeling better from 4 days of no opiates with a pwd kicker.

I kind of wish that there was a drug that simulated pwd that they could give docs, judges, cops, and people who work in jails to know what they are doing to people when they do this kind of stuff like make people take subs to early, or make us kick in jail. I think it might just instill empathy into some people(one of the biggest things I think plaguing americans is lack of empathy) but honestly they'd probably just find a way to use it to fuck with addicts more. My nightmare is cops using narcan as a weapon, were really not that far from it with the laws and how cops act these day.

[Dopeless Hopefiend (OP)]

Well, yesterday I'm not sure how much I took. At least 16, but maybe as much as 24 mg. I was kind of in a benzo blackout. Today I took 12 all together. My doc said I should take 16 again today & stabilize on that for a bit, but I'd rather see if I can maintain at 12.
I figure the lower the dose the less I have to get off of eventually.
I started to feel a little funky about an hour ago, not full on sick, just off. But I took a couple hits of weed and an ativan & feeling much better. I'm gonna see if I can get some normal sleep.
I'm not sure how long I'll stay on the bupe. Maybe a year. Start a SLOW taper 6 months from now. Or who knows maybe I'll end up thinking it's great & stay on it indefinitely. Not my plan right now though. Fuck, at this point I just want to start feeling normal again.

[Chip]

if i were you, i'd try and get that dose way down once you stabilise, and quickly ... might only take a few days.

from what i have seen, most all docs. over-prescribe on the dose, so many folks end up with a huge Bupe stash.

less is more with Bupe, they say ...

[Chip]

@Dopeless Hopefiend, your handle is my favourite. repped. love it.

[Dopeless Hopefiend (OP)]

Thanks @chipper I heard an old biker say it once at an NA  Meeting a lifetime ago & I always liked it.

[Chip]

if I were you, I'd give a quick taper a go - your tolerance is way down now and being a partial antagonist, your receptors now have more of their natural endorphins on them.

weeks, not a year ! no way, I say. you may find that 2/4 mg. will hold you in a few days. try it out and let us know if you have the will.