dopetalk
Core Topics => Treatment, Recovery and Rehabilitation => Topic started by: Dopeless Hopefiend on July 02, 2016, 09:10:25 PM
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to @dizzle and all of the rest of you that advised against my MMT to bupe transition. Fuck. So I waited 5 fucking days with no methadone, took oxy for the first 3 & felt great. Then 2 days with out any opis and the day of my induction arrived. I just didn't feel THAT sick. I mean I felt crappy but not half as bad as I'd expected to.
So, I went to my appointment planning to try to reschedule it for the next day. But my "expert sub doctor" insisted that I would be just fine inducing at a 12 on the COWS Scale. I argued for a while that I just didn't feel ready, but she was like "trust me, I've done inductions way lower than this & they've gone very smoothly" "it's been 5 days, you're good I'm sure of it." So like a fucking idiot I went against everything I was feeling and said ok let's do it. Took 4 mg, no real change, 4 more, still about the same. At this point she sent me home to try and eat something and get some sleep. She told me to take up to 8 more mgs later in the day until I felt better. Then about 20 minutes after leaving... Bam! It hit me & and I was in full on PWD. This shit was the worst thing I've ever felt in my life . Kicking a 2g a day heroin habit on the floor of a cell was close, but not as bad as yesterday by a long shot. I seriously would have welcomed death at a few points through the day. I just kept taking subs & took like 3mg of lorazepam, 2mg of clonazepam & a couple of phennies to give the benzos a little boost, then I pretty much have blacked out. I was still sicker than shit from the PWD but all fucked up on benzos at the same time. Seriously. Worst. Fucking. Day. Of. My. Life. Hands down. But hey, I lost 13 lbs over the week.
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And how does anyone ever get used to the taste of these things. They're fuckin horrible.
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You made it worse by maintaining on Oxy for a few days - day 5 with no done would've helped.
so how are you now ? on the Bupe and stable ? I hope so because you would've lowered your tolly by now.
... which is a good place to be. no pain, no gain.
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So after a day of being sick and eating more subs you feel better?
Like how much better??
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That blows! I remember when it happened to me vividly, sitting in the docs office, cold sweat, bout to shit my pants, puking, and shaking so bad I couldn't stand on my own, hit me all at once. Same shit the doc wasn't there so she had a nurse do the induction and she called him while he was at his conference and he said to induct me and that I was fine even though I wasn't sick had chewed up 300 mgs of er morphine 30 hrs earlier.
When I got sick he told her to send me home with NO INSTRUCTIONS at all, I couldn't get a hold of the dickhead for 3 days didn't know to take more or what.
My gf at the time was 100% against getting me dope, and of course there were no pills to be found, and I couldn't get out of bed. I took so much xanax, clonodine, flexeril, gabapentin, and dabs of 100% indica hash and weed every time I woke up. It was a nightmare every time I woke up soaking wet bed trying to get down all the pills and weed I could. I am just glad that I was able to force myself to pass out because when in reg w/d sometimes it didn't matter what I took sleep was never happening. Finally after 3 days he called back and told me to take more and I slowly started feeling better over the next week.
Never felt right in the 10 months on and off subs though, terrible anxiety, depression, and cravings constantly I was in like a 10 month constant mental half physical w/d so I chipped once a week making it even worse ramping up my tolerance until I had to take like 1000 mgs of oxy a day and I was making so much money I could afford it. I'd go hard for 4-5 days, w/d for one take subs for 4-5 days w/d for 3, take a bunch more oxy and then repeat the cycle. I am quite envious of the people who subs work for but can't really complain because how amazingly mmt works for me.
Good luck with it, hopefully the hard part is over now. Don't chip and ramp your tolerance up, if you were able to stay clean on the done and not on the subs you might want to try getting back on MMT but hopefully you can stay clean and then jump off everything if thats what you wanna do. Don't beat yourself up if you can't though if you can afford the subs and its not a hassle there's nothing wrong with taking em every day if its keeping you clean in my book.
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I feel you @Griffin it was fucking agony. I didn't even try to take any opiates, because I figured it wouldn't matter how many I took they wouldn't be able to break through the subs anyway. I did how ever keep taking benzos & promethazine til I blacked out.
@Esoteric Anhydride I'd say I feel about 60% normal today. Not spectacular but compared to yesterday, it's great. I was finally able to eat something besides saltine crackers and gummy bears this evening so I'm headed in the right direction.
I did stay clean on MMT Griffin, I haven't shot heroin since i found out I was pregnant with my daughter in 2007. I hope I'll have the same luck with subs. Methadone worked great for me, it was the side effects like always sweating and all the weight gain, no sex drive, etc. Going back on MMT at this point would suck. I've missed 5 days in a row, so I'd have to readmit and start back at 6 days a week in the clinic and a bunch of bullshit groups. Can't do it.
@chipper I agree I probably fucked myself with the oxys. I stopped taking them 36 hours before my appt though, so I figured I'd be alright. That's what I get for thinking.
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Hey we've all been there. Of course I'm not trying to dimish your experience, but we've all been on the side of "I've got a great doc and he has done tons of inductions and he's using the paws scale."
And then u have a day like yesterday, and you realize all that is bullshit. That YOU KNOW YOUR BODY, u know more about how opiates effect you than some jerkoff that invented the PAWS scale, that we've done and maintained on more opiates than they've ever prescribed, if you multiply all the hours theyve spent studying by 100 they maybe have as much experience as us.
I don't fault you, it's part of the game. Just know that you took way too much subs for the first day. If I were you I'd have started at 2mg for the first 24 hours. Subs antagonist properties increase exponentially as your dose increases.
Again, I'm glad you're feeling better. I hope you can make work whatever you want to make work.
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I can't wait to get off Methadone too ... but I will do the taper. my friend got off Methadone just a month or two ago but has hit the bottle more than ever, the fool - he has HepB and his liver is failing -- he'd be better off taking drugs.
I hope you can kick the bupe - I am so sick of being on maintenance. over it.
much luck - I'm sure you can do it if you got this far.
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That jump is no joke, especially with only a few days off the juice itself. Good for you.
How much bup have you taken at this point, total?
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Yeah definitely let us know what your dose is when you get comfortable and back to normal. I hear you on going back on mmt, after I did a month in jail I waited another 3 months to decide to get back on it because I'd already gotten that far and was hoping it'd get better. I am finally getting back to two weeks at a time on Tuesday, yesterday was a year back on, I started in nov. 2013 and then got arrested the beginning of march and restarted June 30th.
It's such a hassle to jump through all the hoops I was pissed that I had to go back to daily's because when I got out of jail I went to the clinic twice a month for free drug counseling because my counselor was awesome and I wanted to try to stay off which I was able to stay clean until I got back on, mainly because I wasn't about to get another charge or go back to jail at that point. My counselor went to a different company 2 weeks so I have the jerk off director to deal with until the new one gets settled, I admire you making the effort to jump.
I hate the side effects as well, always hot, sweating, non-existent sex drive, I gained 100lbs in the first year and have just dropped 40 of it but still need to lose another 50 to be normal, probably how most mmt people feel. I got on Testosterone 2 weeks ago so I am praying that takes care of some of these side effects it's already helped quite a bit getting me to start working out and I feel better because of that.
That is awesome that you have been able to stay clean that long! Good luck with everything, and let us know how it goes I am sure most people are curious. I personally will probably never touch the stuff again but who knows what the future holds. I was so pissed when in pwd, I didn't know whether to take more subs or to go find dope I was worried both would make me sick and couldn't get a hold of the doc until I started feeling better from 4 days of no opiates with a pwd kicker.
I kind of wish that there was a drug that simulated pwd that they could give docs, judges, cops, and people who work in jails to know what they are doing to people when they do this kind of stuff like make people take subs to early, or make us kick in jail. I think it might just instill empathy into some people(one of the biggest things I think plaguing americans is lack of empathy) but honestly they'd probably just find a way to use it to fuck with addicts more. My nightmare is cops using narcan as a weapon, were really not that far from it with the laws and how cops act these day.
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Well, yesterday I'm not sure how much I took. At least 16, but maybe as much as 24 mg. I was kind of in a benzo blackout. Today I took 12 all together. My doc said I should take 16 again today & stabilize on that for a bit, but I'd rather see if I can maintain at 12.
I figure the lower the dose the less I have to get off of eventually.
I started to feel a little funky about an hour ago, not full on sick, just off. But I took a couple hits of weed and an ativan & feeling much better. I'm gonna see if I can get some normal sleep.
I'm not sure how long I'll stay on the bupe. Maybe a year. Start a SLOW taper 6 months from now. Or who knows maybe I'll end up thinking it's great & stay on it indefinitely. Not my plan right now though. Fuck, at this point I just want to start feeling normal again.
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if i were you, i'd try and get that dose way down once you stabilise, and quickly ... might only take a few days.
from what i have seen, most all docs. over-prescribe on the dose, so many folks end up with a huge Bupe stash.
less is more with Bupe, they say ...
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@Dopeless Hopefiend, your handle is my favourite. repped. love it.
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Thanks @chipper I heard an old biker say it once at an NA Meeting a lifetime ago & I always liked it.
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if I were you, I'd give a quick taper a go - your tolerance is way down now and being a partial antagonist, your receptors now have more of their natural endorphins on them.
weeks, not a year ! no way, I say. you may find that 2/4 mg. will hold you in a few days. try it out and let us know if you have the will.
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Less is more with bupe, ive never needed more than 4mg per day (after the first day or two)
And the only way to get used to the shitty orange chemical taste is to switch to the white generic tablets. They just came out with a new teva brand i got last month, theyre a lil smaller and thinner than the actavis brand with the moon on one side. The orange generics are even worse than the strips in my opinion.
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The orange generic 8mg tabs are exactly what I have @Dog Food & they are fucking horrible. I know I'm not getting my full dose, because I end up spitting out a mouthful of orange-ish spit after it (mostly) desolves. Fuckin' horrible this shit. My first couple of doses in office were generic white subutex and that may have been even worse.
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yeah I will reiterate what chip said, and tell you the lower the better, when I had an insane habit, the most i ever needed was 4mg and most people thought I could of got by on 2. Of course my doc was prescribing me 20mgs a day but as has been said on here to be a sub doc takes an hour long symposium and they are not by any means or stretch of the imagination an addiction doctor or expert. So you maybe pleasantly surprised to see 2mgs holds you just fine when you are stable.
Weirdly enough I ended up liking the subs taste after about 6 months I was on brand name strips. I think that is normal to be spitting out some orange stuff idk, I have either super over active saliva glands or dry mouth from too much weed, and they told me not to swallow so I'd have this HUGE disgusting amount of spit in my mouth for 30 mins to an hour try to get all of it in my system, then spit out what seemed like a gallon which was orange colored. Sorry if that is TMI, like I felt like I had taken 2 swigs of listerine and held it in my mouth for an hour, with chipmunk cheeks because of how much nasty spit I was holding trying to get it all.'
I don't think that is normal after about 4 months, i started swallowing the spit(not the film) and didn't have a problem. Again maybe a bit TMI but when I started just swallowing the nasty spit it actually helped a tiny bit with what was the worst constipation in my opiate career, it was the weirdest thing within a week of going on MMT my bowel movements became completely normal and its been like that sense after suffering years from it being so awful while strung out and worse on subs.
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I've been on & off bupe a bunch, (never from mmt though) I'd usually take 8-16 mg the first day depending on how much i needed, then I'd always taper down quick to 2-4mg a day. never noticed any significant difference in how i felt when I was on 4mg than if I'd took 16 that day. Sometimes the difference between 2mg & 4 was noticeable though. Splitting my dose to twice a day helped a lot to keep from getting groggy the few hours before dose time & helped me keep my daily dose as low as possible. It's been a while, but I remember railing it a lot to avoid the taste.
Sorry to hear about the PW's, that had to suck big time. I've always been super-paranoid of that happening so I made myself suffer till i was sure. Fuck that doctor for not listening to you...
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I think they all over prescribe to err on the side of safety - nobody's going to OD from Heroin on such a high dose and low ceiling on euphoria and dose-response.
never tried it myself but I have seen a friend do this - dose high then get by on a fraction of their dose.
I'm sticking with MD for now.
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I took 12mg today, probably actually got about 9 or 10 in me in reality. There was still a sliver under my tongue both times when I finally couldn't stand the taste anymore & had to spit. I don't quite get why I can't just swallow them. Would it not work just like any oral meds? Shit for that matter, I'd almost rather keister the fucking things than hold them in my mouth. Seems like that'd be as effective as the sublingual route. I'm (sort of) kidding, but man.
On a positive note, it was in the 80s here today & guess who wasn't sweating? Yep, this girl. And with the whole legal weed thing my lovely state voted for I got to go to my nearest cannabis shop and buy a big fat bag of beautiful bud for the first time in years, because I don't have to worry about a ua & losing my take-outs. And I lost 13lbs in the week since I stopped the 'done.
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welp now I am jealous! It's such bs being in a legal state and not being able to smoke when I have nausea and stuff, plus when I was a stoner I was super healthy, and way more health conscious with food. Anyone notice how stoners are usually skinny, I blame not smoking as well as md for being fat. However I had a UA at the first of the month a few months ago and smoked for the first time in about 2 years, and hated it. It was supposed to be indica but I was tripping waiting for it to end so I could get some sleep. That used to be fun, now not so much.
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That definitely happens to me if i stop smoking herb for a long time, I love the stuff enough to push past it & I always get used to it again & am not bothered by paranoia after a couple weeks of regular smoking. If you miss it try edibles - I never get any paranoia/jitters that way even if it was made with a sativa.
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I've been on & off bupe a bunch, (never from mmt though) I'd usually take 8-16 mg the first day depending on how much i needed, then I'd always taper down quick to 2-4mg a day. never noticed any significant difference in how i felt when I was on 4mg than if I'd took 16 that day. Sometimes the difference between 2mg & 4 was noticeable though. Splitting my dose to twice a day helped a lot to keep from getting groggy the few hours before dose time & helped me keep my daily dose as low as possible. It's been a while, but I remember railing it a lot to avoid the taste.
Sorry to hear about the PW's, that had to suck big time. I've always been super-paranoid of that happening so I made myself suffer till i was sure. Fuck that doctor for not listening to you...
How quick did you taper down to the lower dose? This is my 4th day taking it, but day 1 was that PWD hell & I honestly can't even remember how much I took. Maybe 20mg? After that day I've been taking I've 12 - 16mg a day. Everyone keeps telling me less is more with this shit, but I just want to feel stable. I'm sleeping like shit, no appetite, weepy, tired. I thought subs were supposed to make me feel good. Not like full agonist opiate good, but...normal at least.
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A part of me that thinks if I ever do quit done I will just narcan myself to get er done with as quick as possible. The naloxone should rip all the opiates off your receptors and reduce a long drawn out hell to a short intense kill me hell.
As it stands now though, I want to stay on for a while longer.
My understanding of the no swallowing is that bike is absorbed poorly in your gut. You likely could swallow them, but you would need significantly more. You probably could just put it in your butt honestly. I don't know the numbers, but it follows the usual pattern of these things.
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For me when I was taking bupe i always took 3-7 days to start feeling normal physically, it didn't help me mentally though. I would feel tired, have a lot of neck and leg pain, depressed, and wouldn't sleep very good until at least day 3. So I'd give it a few more days especially cause the pwd. After day 10-14 if your still feeling bad, then it may not work all the great for you but everyones different on how it effects them, how long it takes to get back to normal and such.
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yeah I will reiterate what chip said, and tell you the lower the better, when I had an insane habit, the most i ever needed was 4mg and most people thought I could of got by on 2. Of course my doc was prescribing me 20mgs a day but as has been said on here to be a sub doc takes an hour long symposium and they are not by any means or stretch of the imagination an addiction doctor or expert. So you maybe pleasantly surprised to see 2mgs holds you just fine when you are stable.
Weirdly enough I ended up liking the subs taste after about 6 months I was on brand name strips. I think that is normal to be spitting out some orange stuff idk, I have either super over active saliva glands or dry mouth from too much weed, and they told me not to swallow so I'd have this HUGE disgusting amount of spit in my mouth for 30 mins to an hour try to get all of it in my system, then spit out what seemed like a gallon which was orange colored. Sorry if that is TMI, like I felt like I had taken 2 swigs of listerine and held it in my mouth for an hour, with chipmunk cheeks because of how much nasty spit I was holding trying to get it all.'
I don't think that is normal after about 4 months, i started swallowing the spit(not the film) and didn't have a problem. Again maybe a bit TMI but when I started just swallowing the nasty spit it actually helped a tiny bit with what was the worst constipation in my opiate career, it was the weirdest thing within a week of going on MMT my bowel movements became completely normal and its been like that sense after suffering years from it being so awful while strung out and worse on subs.
I noticed that MY bupe-induced constipation went away when I started swallowing the juice in my mouth from the tablets (this was a while back). I think it's the naloxone unblocking opiates from receptors in the gut. But naloxone isn't absorbed into systemic circulation by the oral route. Perfect!
...and if I ran out, I first noticed (before w/d sx's kicked in) that I had a LOT of pain in my shoulders/neck. Everytime my PST starts to wear off, like if I'm on half-rations because I'm waiting on a bag in the mail, I get that same pain coming back.
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Everybody seems to be different with how the sick hits them. For me it starts in my legs and calves. Always. My wife says it starts in her forearms. I don't know if it's a psychosomatic response, or if everyone really is unique. I am curious to know the why of it.
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How quick did you taper down to the lower dose? This is my 4th day taking it, but day 1 was that PWD hell & I honestly can't even remember how much I took. Maybe 20mg? After that day I've been taking I've 12 - 16mg a day. Everyone keeps telling me less is more with this shit, but I just want to feel stable. I'm sleeping like shit, no appetite, weepy, tired. I thought subs were supposed to make me feel good. Not like full agonist opiate good, but...normal at least.
It'd take me a week at least to get down to my 2-4mg target, but take as long as you need, I'm not sure if or how much the pwd's you went through throw a wrench into the whole first week or two. Might be that you need more for a while. As long as you have those physical symptoms hanging on, I'd keep taking 8-16mg or whatever you need. I think if the PWD's didn't happen you'd be feeling better than you are today, some of that, or after-effects still hanging on i reckon. Once that stuff is gone it shouldn't be too (physically) uncomfortable tapering. Mostly a mental battle in my experience.
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I have a question, if anyone could answer it for me, or if dopeless hopefiend could state your experience when it comes up. It seemed like when I got on bupe I'd start feeling normal around 3-4 days but after a week it became insanely hard to stay on the subs because the cravings, and depression were so bad. I always thought that when I was on subs the day when all of the other opiates were completely out of my system I'd start feeling a lot worse. Does that make sense?
Like say I was taking morphine er before getting on subs, after 3 days on subs I start feeling normal, then somewhere around day 7-10, the mental part of the w/d would come on and become terrible. I believed that since it took 7-10 days for the morphine er to be out of my system completely that it was covering up some of the receptors that the bupe didn't, and when the morphine finally fell off those receptors the bupe didn't cover them and it would make me go through the mental part of the w/d with symptoms like cravings, depression, anxiety, insomnia, and such.
Since you will probably have done in your system for 2-4 weeks if after you start feeling normal your mental w/d gets worse out of nowhere and feels like your in paws let me know. Does anyone have a similar experience or knows what was actually happening. I guess it could be that after time since the bupe wasn't helping my depression and cravings it just continued to get worse and worse until I couldn't take it anymore, and it had nothing to do with the other drug, it's just that it wore me down and snowballed until it was unbearable.
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Yeah, when I get sick, first I get this wringy feeling, starting in my forearms. Like restless arms. Then I get a runny nose that won't quit. Then the yawning and watery eyes, emotional-ness, and constant stretching of my legs. Flexing the muscles in my legs feels good at this stage. Then, onto the nausea and goosebumps and sweating and shaking.
Not good, any of it.
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And how does anyone ever get used to the taste of these things. They're fuckin horrible.
Holy shiiiit you aren't kidding
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A part of me that thinks if I ever do quit done I will just narcan myself to get er done with as quick as possible. The naloxone should rip all the opiates off your receptors and reduce a long drawn out hell to a short intense kill me hell.
Would this really work? My sub doctor is trying to find a procedure to shorten suboxone withdrawal for when his patients want to finally get off it, as it can be up to 3 weeks long of nearly acute withdrawal.
He recently put a patient on short acting opiates for one month, specifically 7.5/350 hydrocodone. Had her taper down to 15mgs a day, then waited 48 hours from her last hydro pill dose and administered narcan. He administered narcan four times over six hours and yet she still felt like she was in withdrawal the following day...
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Um... I'm not sure if I got whole the tale properly...
I may be totally wrong, but there's something what I can't to conceive/comprehend, I'm afraid.
So please don't feel offended or insulted, I'm just intrigued and would be glad to learn more. I'm not going to try to polemicize or question your personal experience, no way.
You said you were able to go through 5(!!!)days OFF THE 'DONE (I assuming that saying like that you mean cold turkey/being off ANY opioids, right/),
what is completely beyond of my reason and hard to figure to me at all), and after you went through such a drudgery surprisingly brave and successfully,
you were still exposed/vulnerable, so to say, for something, what I guess, made you feel like 100times worse than those 5 days,
you didn't even consider worth of mention??? (is it possible that few occasionally "oxy-episodes" were able to make
such a huge difference, almost thwart your plans, as you were almost ready to... transitioning? induction? (is it how you call it?)
Well, I'm not versed enough either in oxy (never ever had a chance to taste it) nor PWD' terms and the details related-
Where I live we used just to talk like "this and that person is just switching for Bunondol (buprenorphine, Subutex) or Suboxone-and that's it.
As far I remember there were in no one of these tales involved such drammatically, tremendous experience like what you described.
(not that my intention were to question what you have written, as I said before)
There're also not any "scales" or other measurement "tools" known (and even if they are, no one doc uses them for sure)-
considering what you said maybe we are advantaged/lucky in it.
All you have to do is just meet the doc, as you want to switch, and he usually wants you to tell him/her your old worn tale, asks few questions,
then the procedure that has to be carrying gets agreed more (or less) together-they usually let you go outpatient/home,
but they might also instist you to stay in hospital, as they are concerned/bothered something to go wrong or unusual.
Plus, as you let your friends and buddies know what you're going to do, they'll be a little bit envy, but, anyway, warn you and want to make sure that
you'll use your bupe no earlier than at least 24hours after you did your last dose of the 'done.
I'm kinda personally interrested how things look like, since I'm just switching from 25mg of the 'done for buprenorphine.
It's a real bitch, kinda selective w/d what involves "only" some specific aspects of the sickness (restlessness, sense of not any relief to look forward), still bothersome, tiring up and tough enough to want
that you want to put an end to this misery like RIGHT NOW. Anyway, even so painful it's still SURVIVABLE.
This bitchery, for some reasons, seems not to have anything, I mean ANYTHING common
with how fairy easy I was able to deal with shit about 10yrs before.
Then I'd call it basically walking through the park while having some mild panting/breathlessness,
as now it's more like a permanent choke.
Same shit-different shit.
Sure I realize bupe is one thing (what makes transitioning a drudgery but not mission impossible or lethally)
and Suboxone something completely else, since the damned "agent naloxone" turns your body and mind into one bloodcurdling scream.
May I ask, how your methadone dose was? Was it somehow exceptionally high or so?
Wish you never again had to go through something even close as agonizing as what you went through.
Good luck no matter how your plans and your path is.
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Yeah, when I get sick, first I get this wringy feeling, starting in my forearms. Like restless arms. Then I get a runny nose that won't quit. Then the yawning and watery eyes, emotional-ness, and constant stretching of my legs. Flexing the muscles in my legs feels good at this stage. Then, onto the nausea and goosebumps and sweating and shaking.
Not good, any of it.
Funny you say that about the restless arms. You and my ex gf are the only 2 people I've ever heard mention it. I've never had any issues with my arms while in WD, just wretched legs.
@smalls naloxone wouldn't work for bupe wd, a mixed agonist, because naloxone is a mu opioid receptor inverse agonist and wouldn't have any effect on the kappa side of buprenorphine. That's why subs have naloxone in them. This is also why naloxone doesn't work for tramadol.
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Funny you say that about the restless arms. You and my ex gf are the only 2 people I've ever heard mention it. I've never had any issues with my arms while in WD, just wretched legs.
I get the thing with my arms too actually. When I went into the PWD last week my mom was afraid I was going to hit her whole time she was driving me home from the doctor because my arms were flailing around. I've never had it happen so intensely before, but I've always had problems with my arms during w/d.
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@nikita70 it was a horrible experience for sure. I was 5 days off methadone, but I was using short acting opis for the first 3 of those days. I had heard horror stories about precipitated withdrawal, so I was trying to be careful not to start the bupe too soon. My doctor was the one who suggested that I take oxy for the first couple of days, so I thought it would be fine. She told me I needed to stop taking oxy 12-24 hours before starting the subs. I waited 36 hours just to be safe. In the end it didn't matter. I don't know why I went into such intense PWD. I was on methadone close to a decade and gained a lot of weight while I was on it. They say 'done stays in your fat cells or something, so maybe that's why it took so long to get out of my system. I thought I did everything right as far as my taper, I mean I was as high as 155mg a day years ago, but got down to 85 and stayed there the last 5 years or so. Then I took at least a year to taper down to 30mg before I jumped.
It sounds like getting on subs is a lot simpler where you are. That doesn't surprise me. The US is pretty far behind most of Europe, Canada, etc when it comes to health-care and drug treatment (among other things). Here most doctors use something called the COWS Scale for sub inductions, and give you scores based on different symptoms you have. I didn't feel like I was nearly sick enough, but my doctor really pushed me to start the suboxone anyway, and induced me at way too high a dose from what I can gather now. I had taken a total of 12mg by the time I left her office. (4 every 30 minutes or so). It truly was the worst w/d experience I've ever had.
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Would this really work? My sub doctor is trying to find a procedure to shorten suboxone withdrawal for when his patients want to finally get off it, as it can be up to 3 weeks long of nearly acute withdrawal.
He recently put a patient on short acting opiates for one month, specifically 7.5/350 hydrocodone. Had her taper down to 15mgs a day, then waited 48 hours from her last hydro pill dose and administered narcan. He administered narcan four times over six hours and yet she still felt like she was in withdrawal the following day...
Not sure honestly. If you did it you would have to continue with naloxone until the drug is eliminated from your system. Narcan doesn't eliminate the opiates. It takes their place on the receptors, but the opiates are still floating there being broken down at a normal rate. When the narcan wears off the opiates hop back in, and you are back where you were as if you never took narcan.
This comes up in overdoses with long acting opiates. Sometimes you will fall out again when the narcan wears off and the receptors open up for business again.
I don't know what it would do but there certainly is precedent and studies about using naloxone for withdrawing.
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Would this really work? My sub doctor is trying to find a procedure to shorten suboxone withdrawal for when his patients want to finally get off it, as it can be up to 3 weeks long of nearly acute withdrawal.
He recently put a patient on short acting opiates for one month, specifically 7.5/350 hydrocodone. Had her taper down to 15mgs a day, then waited 48 hours from her last hydro pill dose and administered narcan. He administered narcan four times over six hours and yet she still felt like she was in withdrawal the following day...
I say that you should just taper gently - sure, it goes on forever but it's relatively painless.
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@nikita70 It sounds like getting on subs is a lot simpler where you are. That doesn't surprise me. The US is pretty far behind most of Europe, Canada, etc when it comes to health-care and drug treatment (among other things). Here most doctors use something called the COWS Scale for sub inductions, and give you scores based on different symptoms you have. I didn't feel like I was nearly sick enough, but my doctor really pushed me to start the suboxone anyway, and induced me at way too high a dose from what I can gather now. I had taken a total of 12mg by the time I left her office. (4 every 30 minutes or so). It truly was the worst w/d experience I've ever had.
@Dopeless Hopefiend
Thanks a lot for you shed some light to this story...
Unfortunately, you're completely wrong as it comes to the "health-care' customs', so to say, where I'm living,
and believe me, Honey (Badger);), I wish you were at least in half part right in what you said.
But please keep in mind-one Europe-different shit.
UK for instance is Harm Reduction' "cradle", and in spite of what nick says (hello nick!) and no matter how much is @nick ;) complaining, sticks to its glorious tradition, what turns England into kinda Junkies Paradise, at least relatively,
comparing to the "zero tolerance" or hardly/seemingly tolerant' attitude that few other countries keens on.
Whilst I'm in Poland, I mean Po-land or Poo-land, one of the most retarded, narcophobic, superstitoius, hatefull and prejudiced country within Europe.
I think Poles takes a lot after Americans in matter of, let's say, law, drug policy and so,
thus I can easily figure out some narcophobic jailhouse jerkoff doc speaking with a deep South accent (no offence, Dixielanders),
slapping palm/five (or how you call it) with this Polish fucker, who has cancel my takehomes after years of being clean playing fair
and tried to blackmail me, threating to get me out of MMT, without any taper and letting me high and dry (what is absolutely against the law, not even mention such things like compassion etc.)
as he revealed I'm on benzos constantly, using them not like "recreational" or so, but out of an urgent need.
This is what has brought me to the idea of switching, instead of ending up as a lifer dragging her ass to the clinic day by day, without any break or chance to leave or holiday, until "things getting change".
Hell, I don't mind to be a methadone lifer, I'd even enjoy it, regarding there would be limitless takehomes involved.
It really hurts to blame one's own Homeland, but truly, this country is going torment me to death, I can feel in my guts that drug-emigration is the only solution,
but for some reasons I'm too much cowardly or maybe just too old, stiffling and spoiled to take a risk.
I'm 45 yrs,
been more than half of my life on opies, benzos, everything, and now, as I finally was able to catch a breathe,
some stupid, ignorant and/or fanatical guy makes my relatively comfy life totally mess. Totally. Fucking once again.
Guess what? When they opened a methadone clinic in my city I was about done, permanent hassles, that crazy "seesaw" of getting high vs crawling sick alternately, fucked me up completely so I was driving on fumes, so to say,
thus I thought maybe I'll save my ass, as the dream about methadone finally came true and the thick liquid started to soak into where the permanent draught were before.
I needed to pass the joint I once kicked as I've been driving to the clinic, and every time I stared at the grim looking building,
I was able to feel some sense of delight and safety overwhelming me,
like "thankfully, this nightmare is already behind me, I'm falling out of the fucking street game so there's no reason shit like this would affect me anymore. At last I don't need to bother it come back, I never ever have to go through this horror again",
plus, I used kinda silent "prayed" or just mentioned or "evoked" those desperated, hapless dopesick individuals inside, behind the bars, cutting off of literally anything.
I wanted them being able to get some relief and kinda sent good vibes (regarding I have any, lol).
As I said, I'm not familiar enough with transitioning terms, there's just a single case I'm able to recall. Suboxone isn't common and/or appreciated here, so it's rather an exception when someone decides to switch for it.
So, my friend got adviced to go to the hospital ward to make the induction.
I truly doubt if they'd provide him with some proper time interval between the last one shot/sip of the 'done
and the bupe' initiation, a "break" long enough to make the switch comfortable, I'd bet it last no longer than at most 24hours before he got his first Suboxone.
They just don't give a fuck.
I have seen this guy like 4-5day later, right after he got discharged from the ward. He seemed to be in surprisingly good condition,
considering all the horror stories I have my head stuffed with. He looked to be just a little bit disconcentrated, unsteady and over-emotional, kinda surrended by some disturbing "aura of an early abstinence",
what is an "obligatory", regular post-detox syndrome that everyone "involved" is able to notice at the first sight, with a naked eye.
It's also what he has reported as people harrased him to tell them "how the transitioning feels like? Is it at least survivable?".
As if there were blind. Doubting Thomases, lol. Wanted they to touch this guy's receptors and make sure they're empty or at least ran out of methadone molecules? Or sink their fingers into his shit?
@Zoops
Another one wall scratcher here. I used to kinda twist with my wrists and forearms as if I'd be performing Indian mudras, or so. People considered me to be Godness and called Cali. Kidding, of course.
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You're absolutely right @nikita70 I did just assume that all (or at least most) of Europe was in line with the UK, Netherlands, etc. where medical/health & addiction services are concerned. I guess Poland is more in line with the good ol' USA though huh? That sucks for both of us. ;)
I totally know what you mean about the relief that MMT brings in just not having to be a part of that street game anymore. Methadone was great for me for a long time. I think as I'm getting older (40)its just harder for my body to fight the side effects like gaining weight & always sweating. Plus, my clinic had become much more punitive over the last couple of years. Taking people's take-home status away for very minor infractions, putting people on administrative detox (meaning 21 days & off, no matter how high your dose was). I suppose I just wanted to try something different, so suboxone seemed easier than tapering down to zero.