Author Topic: Quick story/question  (Read 8721 times)

Offline wanderingmind (OP)

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Location: Minnesnowta
  • Posts: 195
  • Reputation Power: 5
  • wanderingmind is new on the scene.
  • Last Login:October 08, 2017, 10:53:14 AM
  • Our Community Board
Re: Quick story/question
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2017, 07:52:10 AM »
Op Ivy!!!  Bringing me back to middle school  8)

Offline Chip

  • Server Admin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2014
  • Location: Australia
  • Posts: 5918
  • Reputation Power: 0
  • Chip has hidden their reputation power
  • Gender: Male
  • Last Login:Today at 05:55:24 AM
  • Deeply Confused Learner
Re: Quick story/question
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2017, 12:36:05 PM »
I seldom use Meth but when I do, I suffer mild but concerning opioid withdrawal symptoms a few days after I stop.

it's been 8 months since I stopped using Methadone and you would think that I was over any such response but it's not so.

it's something that I have recently observed and it's the sort of stuff that isn't documented often, if at all.
Over 90% of all computer problems can be traced back to the interface between the keyboard and the chair !

Offline wanderingmind (OP)

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Location: Minnesnowta
  • Posts: 195
  • Reputation Power: 5
  • wanderingmind is new on the scene.
  • Last Login:October 08, 2017, 10:53:14 AM
  • Our Community Board
Re: Quick story/question
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2017, 11:11:34 AM »
I seldom use Meth but when I do, I suffer mild but concerning opioid withdrawal symptoms a few days after I stop.

it's been 8 months since I stopped using Methadone and you would think that I was over any such response but it's not so.

it's something that I have recently observed and it's the sort of stuff that isn't documented often, if at all.

Very interesting!

I would suspect it has to do with the re-wiring of our brains through opioid addiction.  The brain just goes on auto-pilot and is so used to opioid withdrawal that it just assumes that's what you're going through - even if it's meth or in my case benzo's.  I've noticed in the past when I have been sick (cold/flu) that my body/brain thinks it's going through w/d and I'll find myself getting RLS or anxiety for a few minutes here and there.  I've REALLY noticed it when I get the goosebumps.  I can be completely off all opioids (no MMT or suboxone and clean for a long time) and when I get the goosebumps, my flight or fight response goes fucking haywire!  It sucks because anytime I get goosebumps, my body automatically goes into mild to moderate withdrawal for a minute or two.  It's really freaky.  I'd guess this is because goosebumps are my litmus test for opioid withdrawal.  When I'm using, as soon as I start getting goosebumps, I know I either better get more dope in me or I'm going to be in for a rough time.

Offline Chip

  • Server Admin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2014
  • Location: Australia
  • Posts: 5918
  • Reputation Power: 0
  • Chip has hidden their reputation power
  • Gender: Male
  • Last Login:Today at 05:55:24 AM
  • Deeply Confused Learner
Re: Quick story/question
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2017, 12:58:32 PM »
yep, i get the goosebumps too ! i put it down to dopamine issues ... i get the chills and when i try to mitigate that, i get the sweats.

all without touching any opiods. fucking irritating.

think again about the impact you make on your endorphin regulatory system -- it can stay with you for a long time. I'm still learning about exactly what sort of damage I have done to my system in my 4 decades of opiate and stimulant usage.

again, I'm not playing the reformed addict but rather,  am letting you know how it can impact your life in your 50's. you DO want to make it that far, yeah ?

at least I have a platform to speak of life after opiates- and let me assure you, i am not totally finished with them but for now, I try my best.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 03:30:38 PM by chipper »
Over 90% of all computer problems can be traced back to the interface between the keyboard and the chair !

Offline Mr.pooper

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: Sep 2015
  • Location: Another needle in the haystack
  • Posts: 267
  • Reputation Power: 17
  • Mr.pooper is new on the scene.
  • Last Login:June 03, 2019, 03:20:35 PM
Re: Quick story/question
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2017, 11:18:28 PM »
I was going to make my own post about this, but many people here seem to suffer from something similar to me. A little over a year ago I started taking Gabapentin. I would only take it for 1-2 days at a time max. And spread my usage to once every 2 weeks.

After roughly 6 months of this, one morning I wake up in horrible withdrawal. I assumed I was just kicking off my normal kratom, and Injested my usual dose. Nothing happened. No relief at all. I took 4x my
Normal dose of kratom (upwards of 20gs) and it barely made me feel a thing. I was still having hot/cold flashes and anxiety to the point of panic attacks. Basically it felt like opiate withdrawal to me.

I proceeded to go through the most hellish withdrawals I've ver had over the next 2 months. It's been over a year at this point. If I take a single Gabapentin dose I go into withdrawal for 3-7 days.

Recently I took a soma, it somehow started up the withdrawals. One dose, and I had withdrawals for a week. That's impossible I thought.

Ive been scratching my head trying to figure it out and have landed on a theory.

Basically all addicts are born in pain.

Pre and post natal exposure to stress hormones produced by the individual and their mother causes the Toll Like Receptors (TLR) to malfunction, especially during stress and puberty (lots of hormones flyin around) but this continues all your life, be you 5 or 50. That's why quitting opiates isn't actually fixing anything in your brain.

Getting clean from heroin is like cleaning a kitchen and thinking your kids aren't gonna mess it up ever again. Things can be done to mitigate  such as gym, healthy diet. But eventually it will be a mess again.

TLR4 in particularly causes proinflammatory cytokines to be produced. These cytokines, in particular TNF-a (there are many others) bind to receptors in our brain, in particular in Mu an Ku (opiate receptors) in the PAG, and gabba receptors. These chemicals in low level cause anxiety, depression and even joint pain and stomach problems, especially during stressful events.

Those exposed to physical and emotional abuse, be they rich or poor are born like this, primed, predisposed. They are born into pain but don't realise that its abnormal to be anxious and depressed.

So when exposed to opiates, and everyone will always end up getting exposed, one day finally you are relieved of a weight you never realised you were carrying.

When i was 14 I had my first shot. I thought the high was amazing.

What i was really feeling though was the giddy relief of life without pain. It was as if 100kg had come off my back.

This pain cant be fixed with panadol. Unless you want to be at gym junkie levels (literally producing a ton of endorphins, opioids that bind to Mu ans Ku) there are no easy solutions.

Heroin works well. But here is the kicker.

Heroin, morphine etc have two metabolites, M6G and M3G. The first relieves pain.

But the second, the M3G causes a problem. It activates, ironically enough, TLR4.

So your body makes more cytokines, so to stop them hitting your gabba, Ku and Mu you have to take more heroin hence tolerance.

Until the day you run out. And then your exposed to insane levels of toxic proinflammatory cytokines. The pain is like the flu x 1000.

The point of these cytokines at elevated levels, they make you vomit, give you fever and attack infected tissue, causing pain on a huge scale but killing the infection as well.

Nominally TLR4 is activated by signally from white blood cells. But for addicts, be you a meth head, drunk or a junkie those three drugs all cause, to certain degrees TLR4 to be activated.






"If only I had checked myself"
-Guy who wrecked himself

Offline LadyKalma

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • SA_Chat+
  • **
  • Join Date: Aug 2015
  • Location:
  • Posts: 178
  • Reputation Power: 7
  • LadyKalma is new on the scene.
  • Last Login:March 09, 2019, 05:12:23 AM
  • Welcome to drugs-and-users !
Re: Quick story/question
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2017, 03:42:04 AM »
Interesting stuff, thats a really good explanation of thibgs. I am the same way, like if i yawn or am overheated ill start feeling like withdrawal just cause im probably traumatised from going through it enough and my body interpretations of everything bad=dopesickness. This also happens when i don't feel good from having my period. Quite sucky but not unusual.

Offline wanderingmind (OP)

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Oct 2015
  • Location: Minnesnowta
  • Posts: 195
  • Reputation Power: 5
  • wanderingmind is new on the scene.
  • Last Login:October 08, 2017, 10:53:14 AM
  • Our Community Board
Re: Quick story/question
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2017, 02:39:08 AM »
Mr. Pooper: interesting hypothesis.  It's human nature to want to find the reason why something happens.  It's perfectly normal to wonder why we get addicted.  However, I think where people get it wrong is that they look for the "single" reason why addicts get addicted.  The brain is complicated mother-fucker!  We've come a long way in understanding the brain, however - we have a LONG way to go.  I think the path to addiction has a bunch of different factors. 

I'm definitely going to do some research on TLR's.

One thing that I've always wondered about with addiction/alcoholism relates to evolution.  I'm fascinated by evolution.  I'm also fascinated by addiction.  I've always wondered how addiction is still part of homo sapien after millions of years of evolution.  You would think that over the last ~15,000 years of the "modern" human, that addiction would have been an evolutionary negative and thus the rate of addiction would have declined.  I say this because addiction shortens life-expectancy, wreaks havoc on child-rearing as well as many other negatives.

However, if anything, the rate of addiction has increased over the last 15,000 years.  So, there must be something positive evolutionarily.  I've got some hypotheses, but no real answers.

Offline Mr.pooper

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: Sep 2015
  • Location: Another needle in the haystack
  • Posts: 267
  • Reputation Power: 17
  • Mr.pooper is new on the scene.
  • Last Login:June 03, 2019, 03:20:35 PM
Re: Quick story/question
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2017, 03:48:23 AM »
Mr. Pooper: interesting hypothesis.  It's human nature to want to find the reason why something happens.  It's perfectly normal to wonder why we get addicted.  However, I think where people get it wrong is that they look for the "single" reason why addicts get addicted.  The brain is complicated mother-fucker!  We've come a long way in understanding the brain, however - we have a LONG way to go.  I think the path to addiction has a bunch of different factors. 

I'm definitely going to do some research on TLR's.

One thing that I've always wondered about with addiction/alcoholism relates to evolution.  I'm fascinated by evolution.  I'm also fascinated by addiction.  I've always wondered how addiction is still part of homo sapien after millions of years of evolution.  You would think that over the last ~15,000 years of the "modern" human, that addiction would have been an evolutionary negative and thus the rate of addiction would have declined.  I say this because addiction shortens life-expectancy, wreaks havoc on child-rearing as well as many other negatives.

However, if anything, the rate of addiction has increased over the last 15,000 years.  So, there must be something positive evolutionarily.  I've got some hypotheses, but no real answers.

There's some sort of weird effect on the brain due to environmental reasons I believe is one of the big ones. They have replicated city lives for rats and they observed things like the rats would just shake in corners, and some started switching gender roles.

Also there was one study about the rats and cocaine. Given the different water sources one filled with cocaine and the other water. The rat will become addicted to the cocaine water like %100 of the time. But what they didn't factor in was their environment causing the addiction. They created the perfect
Rat sanctuary called Ratopia I think (this is all off the top of my head) and did the same cocaine water test. They found that the happy rats wouldn't use the cocaine very often given the same access.


Evolutionary advantage of addiction is the reduction of pain. Depending on what the pain level is, one cannot function. Be it mental or physical.
"If only I had checked myself"
-Guy who wrecked himself

Offline traplord69

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • SA_Chat+
  • **
  • Join Date: Dec 2015
  • Location:
  • Posts: 116
  • Reputation Power: 4
  • traplord69 is new on the scene.
  • Last Login:April 20, 2019, 01:45:07 PM
  • Our Harm Reduction & Safe Using forum
Re: Quick story/question
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2017, 11:36:58 AM »
I think it was called rat park, I heard about the same study, this guy named Carl Hart talked about it on a podcast, he's a really cool dude, he's a professor at Columbia University in NYC and is a huge advocate of responsible drug use and has done a bunch of studies on crack/cocaine/meth use among other things and gives talks around the world about actual drug facts, not the horseshit that we've been fed our entire lives. 

I've mentioned this before but I think the evolutionary angle comes down to the fact that we are so far separated from the things that made us who we are like searching for subsistence levels of food, fighting off predators, living in tight knit communities where everyone cares for one another.  Most of us have everything that we need, more so in fact.  Think about how easy it is to hop in your car and drive to super market and get anything you want, or a fast food place, or a restaurant, it takes almost no effort and historically, acquiring food was never this simple.  We simply have too much time on our hands to think about ourselves and thus have come up with ways in which to deal with it when we can no longer handle ourselves.  As an example, people from poverty stricken inner city's have a lower suicide rate than do rich or upper middle class individuals.  They have to fight to survive, which is exactly how we evolved, we basically were conditioned to go through some serious physical struggles, I think its the mental struggles that we're playing catch up with.

Offline Indy

  • Regular
  • *
  • SA_Chat+
  • **
  • Join Date: Jun 2015
  • Location:
  • Posts: 46
  • Reputation Power: 2
  • Indy is new on the scene.
  • Last Login:November 24, 2017, 04:46:19 PM
  • Welcome to our community forum ...
Re: Quick story/question
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2017, 10:00:42 PM »
Of all people, "Dr. Drew" Pinsky had an interesting take on the genetics of addiction. He said that it was basically the "next step" of evolution for certain groups, namely tribal cultures that experienced war and other things like that. His explanation was, say the Celts, they would go to battle and out of a thousand people,  the 100 that survived would be the drunks, the addicts, because they were able to cope with things humans normally can't cope with, they used chemicals to do that.

Not sure how much I believe it, I think its worth considering but I'm not saying this is my opinion, just sharing the words of someone who normally seems really close minded with his ideas of his addiction. He's a big fan of the "if there's an addict in your life, help them get clean, and if they won't get clean cut them out of your life completely NO MATTER WHAT".

It's worth nothing that his take on addiction was during his Loveline days, before he got huge and had to become a family friendly mainstream TV personality first, doctor second. I have a lot of problems with Dr. Drew, but if you listen to some of his older talks, he isn't a stupid person. He also, just based on his not picking up on certain things like conversational undertones, isn't a genius by any means. But I digress....

Offline nick

  • Founder
  • Founders
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2014
  • Location:
  • Posts: 732
  • Reputation Power: 0
  • nick has hidden their reputation power
  • Last Login:Today at 06:33:21 AM
Re: Quick story/question
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2017, 12:43:58 AM »
Yeah,there's a whole school of" addiction is the next step in human evolution" out there-total bullshit if you ask me.

Addiction is no more the next step in human evolution than it is a moral failing. Addiction is just addiction-opinions on addiction that go further than that says more about the person making the observation than addiction itself. 

Offline Mr.pooper

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: Sep 2015
  • Location: Another needle in the haystack
  • Posts: 267
  • Reputation Power: 17
  • Mr.pooper is new on the scene.
  • Last Login:June 03, 2019, 03:20:35 PM
Re: Quick story/question
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2017, 02:47:20 AM »
Yeah,there's a whole school of" addiction is the next step in human evolution" out there-total bullshit if you ask me.

Addiction is no more the next step in human evolution than it is a moral failing. Addiction is just addiction-opinions on addiction that go further than that says more about the person making the observation than addiction itself.

What do you think about the damaged TLR receptors theory?
"If only I had checked myself"
-Guy who wrecked himself

Offline Michellebaines0419

  • Newbie
  • SA_Chat+
  • **
  • Join Date: Jul 2017
  • Location: Island of misfit toys
  • Posts: 8
  • Reputation Power: 2
  • Michellebaines0419 is new on the scene.
  • Gender: Female
  • Last Login:September 11, 2018, 07:52:49 PM
  • I speak 3 languages: English, Sarcasm & Sex
Re: Quick story/question
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2017, 02:56:49 AM »
Oh fuck! I'm pretty sure I caused my own fibromyalgia with my IV dope habit.

Offline Mr.pooper

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: Sep 2015
  • Location: Another needle in the haystack
  • Posts: 267
  • Reputation Power: 17
  • Mr.pooper is new on the scene.
  • Last Login:June 03, 2019, 03:20:35 PM
Re: Quick story/question
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2017, 07:13:05 AM »
Oh fuck! I'm pretty sure I caused my own fibromyalgia with my IV dope habit.

How so? Is this common amongst IV users?
"If only I had checked myself"
-Guy who wrecked himself

Offline Michellebaines0419

  • Newbie
  • SA_Chat+
  • **
  • Join Date: Jul 2017
  • Location: Island of misfit toys
  • Posts: 8
  • Reputation Power: 2
  • Michellebaines0419 is new on the scene.
  • Gender: Female
  • Last Login:September 11, 2018, 07:52:49 PM
  • I speak 3 languages: English, Sarcasm & Sex
Re: Quick story/question
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2017, 01:46:51 AM »
I don't know if it's common in iv users, but fibromyalgia is basically an overload of abnormal cytokine responses. The body over processes and over reacts to pain responses.

Offline Mr.pooper

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: Sep 2015
  • Location: Another needle in the haystack
  • Posts: 267
  • Reputation Power: 17
  • Mr.pooper is new on the scene.
  • Last Login:June 03, 2019, 03:20:35 PM
Re: Quick story/question
« Reply #29 from previous page: July 23, 2017, 08:46:32 AM »
I don't know if it's common in iv users, but fibromyalgia is basically an overload of abnormal cytokine responses. The body over processes and over reacts to pain responses.

Interesting to hear about the fibro, I have heard Basically MS is what happens when you're chronically exposed to cytokines without the neutralising effect of opiates....literally the M6G(Morphine-6-glucuronide)somehow affects the cytokines.
"If only I had checked myself"
-Guy who wrecked himself

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
7 Replies
1786 Views
Last post February 01, 2016, 06:24:57 PM
by Chip
0 Replies
1622 Views
Last post July 23, 2015, 01:23:25 PM
by dazzler
32 Replies
9850 Views
Last post December 20, 2015, 01:03:54 AM
by Daughter of Dionysus
6 Replies
1165 Views
Last post January 16, 2016, 03:38:56 PM
by Z
2 Replies
1877 Views
Last post June 12, 2016, 10:04:17 AM
by puppy
12 Replies
3139 Views
Last post August 08, 2016, 02:22:29 PM
by chemicalchart
3 Replies
2315 Views
Last post September 08, 2016, 09:35:07 AM
by Chip
13 Replies
4444 Views
Last post November 02, 2016, 01:50:19 AM
by 6-mam
1 Replies
1019 Views
Last post February 16, 2018, 11:07:27 AM
by BamaPainGurl




TERMS AND CONDITIONS

In no event will d&u or any person involved in creating, producing, or distributing site information be liable for any direct, indirect, incidental, punitive, special or consequential damages arising out of the use of or inability to use d&u. You agree to indemnify and hold harmless d&u, its domain founders, sponsors, maintainers, server administrators, volunteers and contributors from and against all liability, claims, damages, costs and expenses, including legal fees, that arise directly or indirectly from the use of any part of the d&u site.


TO USE THIS WEBSITE YOU MUST AGREE TO THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS ABOVE



Founded December 2014